53. Why excessive packaging is illegal

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Hello, welcome to Talking Rubbish, a weekly podcast delving deep into the world of recycling and discussing the truth behind snappy headlines and one-sided stories. In this episode, we will discuss why too much packaging is actually illegal. Is cheesewax rubbish or not? And I have a question about why you need the gaps on the thread of a plastic bottle. You're just gonna have to trust me on that one. I'm James Piper, author of the rubbish book, and I'm joined by Robbie Stanaforth, my far from rubbish friend. Good morning, Robbie. Morning, James. Very rarely do we have chat before we dial into this podcast. We just go for it. But um today I needed to test your mic out, and uh you've just honestly you've started so well. What did you say just before we dialed in?

SPEAKER_01 0:45

I can't even remember. I'm sure it was.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

I'm going to project my voice using my diaphragm.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

Not just my laugh, I'm gonna project my voice too.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

I mean, I'm excited to see the difference. Listen out for it. Okay. A diaphragm heavy Robbie. I'm excited today. I'm spending my afternoon presenting a project to a room of people that I've been working on for a year. That's so exciting.

SPEAKER_01 1:13

Yeah, I'll be there heckling from the back, don't worry.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

Oh, will you? Oh, that's good. Oh, so all the talking rubbish spotters will be delighted that they get to see their favourite presenter.

SPEAKER_01 1:25

Oh yeah, oh yeah. Are we trying to steal the limelight from the back of the cinema?

SPEAKER_00 1:30

Yes, we're gonna be in a cinema. Yeah, that's very exciting. Because this is basically a refill project. We're trying to make refill really work and properly work. And um I'm gonna talk a lot more about this in the future, but today we're gonna present this to a load of brands and retailers, and yeah, we thought it'd be quite fun to do it in a cinema. Everyone's getting their popcorn in like cool refillable cups and all the everything's in refill. It's so exciting. I'm very excited to see it, to be honest. Yes, well, I will report back in a couple of months. Once we've got once we understand exactly where this project's going, I'm definitely gonna do we should do an episode or something on it where we talk about it because it's it's really exciting working in this space and trying to make refill happen. Trash talk. So we've all had it right. We've had a product delivered to us from one of the many online retailers or even in a shop, and we thought, why is there so much packaging around this product? And I think people will be really surprised to know that it is illegal for companies to do that.

SPEAKER_01 2:38

Absolutely, yeah. I remember because you first taught me this about 15 years ago or so, that this was illegal. So uh thanks very much, James. You you've uh gave me the knowledge to be where I am today.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

I look forward to some of that knowledge being released to our listeners. So this came up because I was on the radio the other day, and the only reason I was asked to come on the radio was because the producer of the radio show, Karen, had had an item delivered from IKEA which had come in a massive box. So I did reach out to, because I wasn't she actually just sent me a photo of the box. I'm not entirely sure what was in the box, how overpackaged it was. I never got a response, but you know, there's basically this IKEA had sent a massive box with a small product in it. And I had it this week as well. I went to um I went to a supermarket. I won't say which one, just because again, I'm sure they all do this, so there's no real value in saying which one. I went to a supermarket and I bought one of these, like it was a parmesan cheese, right? And it looked proper gourmet. It was like paper wrapped, but like, you know, nice, really nice, luxurious. Nice, nice deli packaging and stuff. Heavy paper. I thought I'm gonna go for that rather than a plastic wrapped cheese. I got it home, I took the paper off. It was just a normal parmesan cheese wrapped in plastic. Oh. Just like all the others, but they'd put this really nice deli paper over it. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 4:03

Not even 36th month matured. It's just a regular old 18-month.

SPEAKER_00 4:08

Just a normal cheese. I mean, I'm sure the paper and the plastic had the same wording on, but it's funny how you're psychologically geared towards this. This must be an amazing cheese. It's got paper. Then you open it and it's just a normal plastic wrap cheese. Not that exciting. Now, as I said, when I was on that radio show, I explained it would actually be illegal to pack to overpackage. And the presenter was so astonished that I actually thought it was just worth discussing it here. He said, God, I wish everyone knew this. And I was thinking, if only I had a podcast that speaks to loads of people. So I should not be giving all my best ideas to the radio. We need to be doing it, keeping them for ourselves, probably. This is content.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

Yeah, no, it's definitely one of those really interesting issues, and it's one that comes up all the time in daily life. Like this is the tangible one that people like to uh to moan and wax lyrical about. That why is it I've ordered this thing often online, it's turned up, and it just feels like it's got ten times the amount of packaging that it needs. And so lots of people out there will be listening to this thinking, yep, I've had that recently.

SPEAKER_00 5:19

So we are talking today about a piece of legislation. I feel like we've introed it enough, piece of legislation called the packaging essential requirements. It was introduced in 1998. Basically, it's a piece of legislation to reduce the impact that packaging has on the environment. And it's got quite a few different things that it looks at, but mainly it's about minimizing weight and volume, and it places restrictions on things like heavy metals in our packaging and hazardous substances. So it is one of those pieces of legislation where goes, if you're going to make packaging, this is how to make it.

SPEAKER_01 5:52

Yeah, and it's kind of giving uh very broad guidelines, you know. So it is when we'll come onto it in a second, it is still quite broad, but it's trying to define the edges of what is unacceptable when it comes to how goods are actually packaged when they place they're placed on the market. Nothing really to do with the recycling of them at the end of its life, but just to do with the design.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

It does actually talk quite a lot about recycling. I was surprised reading through it because they've done updates since I last looked at it, you know, 15 years ago, as you say, Robbie. They've released new versions. And the latest version does talk a lot about recycling, actually. It says your product must be able to be recycled or recovered, and if if it's going for incineration, it needs to have a certain calorific value. But again, it just it doesn't give any detail. It doesn't say it needs to do this, it just needs to all be kind of you need to be thinking about it when you're designing packaging, is basically what the legislation's saying. It's it is easily the woolliest piece of packaging legislation out there. It's just so non-committal in terms of how you need to package things up or how what packaging to use.

SPEAKER_01 7:02

No, and I think the last time it was updated was way back in 2015. So it's 10 years since this has had a had a tinker with and um an update. So it just goes to show that it's really not something that's looked at very regularly. There's also important to say, so this is in the UK, but it originally came from a piece of EU legislation. So most European countries will have an equivalent to this that means goods shouldn't be overpackaged effectively.

SPEAKER_00 7:30

And so when we um When we say it's what when I say it's one of the wooliest pieces of legislation, let me explain the wording in terms of the over-packaged bit. So this is what it says in the legislation. Packaging must be so manuf I hate when they add the word so in the words. Packaging must be so manufactured. It's like legalese. You love it, James. I hate it.

unknown 7:51

I hate it.

SPEAKER_00 7:53

We're gonna drop that so. Packaging must be manufactured. Oh no, we need the sew now.

SPEAKER_01 8:00

You've got to read it verbatim, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_00 8:02

But why do we do it that way around? Hang on, let me do okay. So this is how it's worded. Packaging must be so manufactured that the packaging. So surely it's I know it's not, but the better way is packaging must be manufactured so that the packaging volume and weight is limited to the minimum adequate amount to maintain the necessary levels of safety, hygiene, and acceptance for the packed product and for the consumer. That last part is the most important. What it is basically saying is you have to package goods to the level of customer acceptance. So the only way a company can break the law is if you complain. It's mad. I was trying to think of an analogy. It's basically shoplifting is legal and everyone can watch you doing it, and it's all fine. You just walk into a shop, take what you want, it's legal until someone complains about it, and then it's become illegal. What?

SPEAKER_01 9:00

Yeah, no, I agree it's really woolly, but on the flip side, it kind of does feel like people power is at play here, and if we rise up and complain about these things, then suddenly it becomes illegal. Isn't that great? It sounds like we've got the power in our hands as the citizen. I see you shaking your head.

SPEAKER_00 9:22

Yeah, because nobody knows about this legislation.

SPEAKER_01 9:25

Yeah, but everyone's gonna know about it after this podcast.

SPEAKER_00 9:28

People power cannot be at play if nobody knows that they can do this. So, yes, now a few thousand people will know because of our podcast. Lovely. What we need you to do is tell all your friends, whenever you get anything overpacked, say, Did you know you can complain about this? And let's spread the word that this is not right and it's not allowed. But you have to complain to get anything done about it.

SPEAKER_01 9:53

That's a good life lesson, James, for the listeners. You have to complain to get something done about things.

SPEAKER_00 9:59

Yeah. So as I said, I don't think there is anyone who accepts overpackaging. You know, I think so. This idea that you have to complain and say, I don't accept this, so now I want you to do something about it. To me, it should just say, Well, look, no one's gonna be happy about overpacking, whether they complain or not. Yeah. So we should just put rules on how much air is allowed in any piece of packaging.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

Whoa, okay. Some volume-based metrics to Yeah, and this is what other countries do.

SPEAKER_00 10:28

Other countries have a percentage airspace allowed. I think this is actually gonna change for us. So I think this could be an argument I don't need to have soon.

SPEAKER_01 10:38

Because under the uh PPWR, the packaging and packaging waste regulations, which is a piece of regulation coming in in the EU.

SPEAKER_00 10:47

Thank you. I noticed in there they have a restriction on empty space to 50%. So 50% of your product volume. Oh, yes, remember.

SPEAKER_01 10:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

I still think that's really high, but I sort of understand that you have to make sure you're protecting the product, so you might want a bit of airspace in there.

SPEAKER_01 11:05

You don't want your Watsits crushed, do you? That's not one that's not a euphemism. What sits on your Watsits?

SPEAKER_00 11:12

Is that the is that an ad? Have I made that up? I think you've made that.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

But maybe you should pitch it.

SPEAKER_00 11:17

But if something does sit on my Watsits, I would like it to survive. So you're right. There would need some airspace in that packaging. But I know China and other countries do have airspace rules. It's descended into silliness now, this episode. Sometimes you're doing notes for episodes and you think this is legislative heavy, it's gonna be really boring. Turns out not. So you receive a massive box with a tiny item in it. What do you do? You need to complain to, Robbie?

SPEAKER_01 11:57

Trading standards. Is that still true? Oh god, I said that very confidently, and I suddenly thought, is that still the case?

SPEAKER_00 12:03

It is true. Specifically, the weights and measures department of trading standards. So uh basically you look up your local trading standards office. I'll include a link in the link tree where you can put your postcode to find your local office. It's normally just part of your council. So you you phone that trading standards office or you send them an email. Say I've received this packaging for this item, I think it's overpackaged, and then they have to look at it. And they have to decide whether it is overpackaged or not and whether to pursue the company.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

Yeah, which I mean the degree to which they will go and pursue these companies for these offences, I think will differ massively from one local authority to the next. And just like uh a few episodes ago, we talked about uh litter fines, and one part of Oxfordshire had issued hundreds of them, and the another had only issued two in like ten years or something. It's the same sort of thing. It depends on the local authorities' approach. But that's definitely the place you're gonna have to go and then follow it up to see what they've done about it.

SPEAKER_00 13:11

And the legislation starts bold on this. It's like you can be fined, and it's an unlimited fine, you know, uh I think they call it a stage five fine, which is unlimited around the country. As far as I can tell, there have been five prosecutions under this legislation. Five in total? I think so. Oh my god! I mean, I remember talking to you about this almost 15 years ago, and it was five, and I still think it's five. Yeah. I don't think anyone's been prosecuted since we last spoke about this.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

Tell me you're gonna be talking about a beef roasting joint at some point. Of course. Oh, I remember that. Oh god, there's so few examples that we're still using that. Oh, and the listeners are gonna be looking forward to it now.

SPEAKER_00 13:52

They weren't actually fined, so they're not even an example of a fine. But the latest uh product I could find that had actually had a fine was 2009, and that was Swindon Council took Power Play Group to court, and they were prosecuted, and it is the most ridiculous thing you've ever seen. So it's a stylus, you know, like a Nintendo DS stylus. You guys remember those? So quite a small, a small pen, like an Argos pen. Yeah, okay. Is it that size? I think it must be. Okay, Robbie, for the uh for the transcript, Robbie is holding a small pen. A small stylus from my laptop. Lovely, it is about that size. Okay, so there were four of them. It was in like a vacuum-sealed plastic pack, which was about the size of a magazine. So like an A4 size.

SPEAKER_01 14:44

Yeah, yeah, and it's like that hard plastic vacuum sealed, the stuff that's absolutely impossible to get into. It's that stuff, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 14:52

And after being approached and sorting it out, they reduced that to the size of a pack of playing cards. So that's what we're talking about. A4 to pack of playing cards. It was found that they had 10% product, 90% packaging.

SPEAKER_01 15:05

Oh my gosh. Talk about overselling the product. And what? They were just trying to make it big to make it look like you were getting lots for your money or something. What is the logic?

SPEAKER_00 15:17

It would look big on the shelf, it would have been part of the marketing. Just to show you that unlimited fine, they were fined £3,250. So it that's the reality of this legislation. And what really happens is you complain about packaging, trading standards, approach the company, say, Hey, would you change your packaging? And most companies go, Yeah, we'll change it. That'd be okay, we'll just reduce the packaging, and it goes away, and you never hear about it. And that's why there are so few fines. Okay. And as Robbie alluded to, there is no more famous case than Sainsbury's Taste the Difference, slow matured ultimate beef roasting joint.

SPEAKER_01 16:01

Gosh, that's a mouthful, isn't it? It depends how small you cut up the chunks.

SPEAKER_00 16:11

So, yes, the relatively dull world of packaging essential requirements became very exciting in 2010 when we all thought a major retailer might actually suddenly get in trouble for this. So an unnamed person, I don't know who it was, decided to complain about, as I said, the Sainsbury's Taste the Difference slow-matured ultimate beef roasting joint. And this was the first time a major supermarket was going up against this legislation.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

Are you about to reveal that you were that unnamed person?

SPEAKER_00 16:45

I don't think so. It was a lady, I think. So I don't think it was either of us. Okay. But they were never named in the process. Lincolnshire Council pursued the case. Basically, I'll try and describe it, the beef joint was vacuum-packed, then it was put in a plastic tray with a lid, and then surrounded by cardboard.

SPEAKER_01 17:04

Okay, lots of different packaging.

SPEAKER_00 17:06

Sounds very similar to my Parmesan cheese. Oh, okay. Maybe I should be trading standards my parmesan cheese as part of this discussion.

SPEAKER_01 17:14

I think you should, yeah. And let's see what happens. Let's see what response you get. And we can do an update in a future episode. Have you still got the packaging though? Have you still got the item?

SPEAKER_00 17:24

I always need parmesan cheese. I'll go get some more. Okay. Why am I eating so much parmesan cheese?

SPEAKER_01 17:29

I don't know. Are you like eating it like an apple? I do really like it.

SPEAKER_00 17:33

I like it on crackers, and Ellie thinks I'm really weird. Like, you know, like cheese and biscuits. No one ever says the Parmesan. You really like a hard cheese. But why not? It's really nice. I find it really weird that people don't do that. So, for this Sainsbury's product, the court hearing was due on the 13th of October 2010. And people were excited. I mean, I found articles where they were like, this is happening, you know, we're gonna find out what happens under this legislation, maybe this will set a precedent for all future ones, because actually it's a big retailer having to bow down to the council. The case was dropped. Oh no. The council said it was no longer in the public interest to pursue the case, and they decided to drop it the day before the hearing. And as I said, this was because Sainsbury's had proved that they had reduced the packaging and replaced all the old stock. And this is the problem with legislation. It takes so long to take someone to court. By the time you get to court, the retailer will just go, Well, I've changed it all, so I don't this is making a mountain out of a molehill, and everyone decides it's a waste of time. Which it probably is to be fair, and at least it gets people changing their packaging. So it's probably a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

Yeah, and I suppose do you really need the fine to be the deterrent? It's just that feeling that someone got told off whether they got the fine. I mean, given that that fine for the stylus was only three grand or whatever, it doesn't sound like it would have really made a difference to Sainsbury's uh profit and loss at the end of the year, would it, even if they had have issued a fine.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

100% agree. So Councillor Peter Robinson, Deputy Leader of Lincolnshire County Council, said the packaging has now been reduced and a way forward to try and achieve even further reductions has been agreed. I am very pleased with this positive outcome. The need for court action has been avoided, and the reduction in packaging which is being achieved on this and other products will have result in less environmental damage while at the same time lowering the cost of a council taxpayer of processing household waste. And I guess that's a good summary, isn't it? It's hey, look, we've reduced the environmental impact. We haven't introduced the cost to the council because we didn't end up going to court. So having this legislation has meant something has changed. And I guess as you're saying there, Robbie, that's the good thing. Just having the legislation means that councils have something that they can go back to companies with to say you need to reduce your packaging. And we as consumers, as you said earlier, have a lot of power in terms of being able to go, actually, we're not happy with this. I'm going to complain. And I'm going to get something done about it. But we do need to know this legislation exists for that to happen.

SPEAKER_01 20:11

I do take your point though that you made that it's strange that you have to complain for it to be changed, because I think packaging uh technologists out there could do with some guidance, as you say, on airspace and things. Because yes, they're trying to make their goods look interesting and pop on the shelf, so to speak, so that we buy them, but at the same time, many of them just don't quite know what the rules are in terms of how should it be designed, how should it be packed. And at the moment, all of the focus really is not on over-packaging so much, but the material that you're using. And is it in a single material, a mono material, and can that material be recycled? Hence the things that come up in our rubbish or not sort of segment, and there's not as much focus on actually, is there just too much of it? Doesn't really matter what the material is, there's just too much. You don't need that much material around uh some product.

SPEAKER_00 21:16

And in my mind, there are two types of over-packaging. So the stylus, that Nintendo DS stylus is one example. They have tried to make that packaging as big as possible so that it stands out on the shelves. That's bad. That's completely stupid, completely pointless. Marketing-led over packaging needs to not happen.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

Okay, yeah. The marketing-led stuff is the really surely that's the really bad stuff, isn't it? Because you're you're deliberately just trying to add more and more material to something to sell more units. I completely agree.

SPEAKER_00 21:49

But an online retailer like Amazon sending us something to our home, or IKEA in the example of the radio producer that started this off, why would they do this? There's no marketing advice. Advantage to them. You know, you're not choosing the product because of its packaging. The packaging is getting just sent to you. And I guess it's just worth remembering. Packaging costs money. People always seem to forget this. You know, those boxes cost a lot of money, and no company wants to send us more than they need to. They want to reduce the package. Why would they want to pay massive postage fees, send us a massive box for something we've already bought? Yeah. And so what this comes down to is actually them only wanting a certain number of box variations. You want to standardize the boxes, and so you are limited in what you can pick from. And when you're buying something small, they might have just big boxes available at that point in time. So to save money, there is definitely big business in getting the right packaging to us. And Amazon had some really interesting stats here. So uh since 2015, they've actually reduced the per shipment packaging weight by 41%, which avoids two million tonnes of packaging.

SPEAKER_01 23:06

Wow, that's sh that shows how significant some of these changes can be, doesn't it? For certainly this these large, large retailers.

SPEAKER_00 23:14

But also it tells us they were over packaging by 41%. Because if between 2015 and now they've reduced it by 41% and they definitely haven't reduced their sales. Yeah, for sure. Then they're over packaging by 41% before 2015. And so all these stories and feelings that we have are definitely valid. In 2022, 11% of their orders globally had no additional packaging. So they call this ship in product packaging. So where you're just sent it in its original packaging with a label on.

SPEAKER_01 23:45

Yeah, just the primary packaging. There's none of that additional cardboard box to protect the packaging from getting damaged in transit, which always seems absolutely mad.

SPEAKER_00 23:55

But what we have to remember though is that stat means that 89% does have additional packaging. You know, which means, you know, yes, it's great, 11% just got sent out with a sticker, but 89% of what Amazon sends out or sent out in 2022 had twice the amount of packaging compared to if you just bought it in a shop.

SPEAKER_01 24:14

Wow. And so that means that they're making the assessment that in their logistics this thing's going to get damaged and not make it to someone's home. They must be making that judgment call.

SPEAKER_00 24:25

Exactly. And in Europe now with Amazon, everything is paper-based. They don't use single-use plastic delivery bags anymore or plastic air pillows. And I don't order from Amazon very much, but certainly when I do, I have noticed that shift away from those plastic envelopes that you used to get, the plastic tape and the plastic uh bubble wrap. With regards to packaging or overpacking, they are actually starting to use machine learning algorithms, so things like AI, to examine a product and determine the packaging it needs. I think I've seen a video where they like put the product under a camera and it goes use this box.

SPEAKER_01 24:59

Yeah, yeah, it detects the perfect size box so that you're not having to do trial and error as one of the packers.

SPEAKER_00 25:06

And just to put that in perspective, the algorithms have reduced the use of boxes by over 35% in North America and Europe. So really good use for AI, machine learning, really helping reduce the amount of packaging that's coming out to us. So just to summarise this trash talk, uh my view is regulation needs teeth, and I do not feel like the packaging essential requirements has teeth. It is very difficult to find people under it because by the time you get to the point where you're finding them, they've probably made the change. And so the thing to remember as listeners to this podcast, and just to remember as consumers, is you are allowed to complain about packaging. You can complain to trading standards. Trading standards will look into it, they will talk with the company, and the company should change because they're unlikely to want to be prosecuted or fined. So that is an opportunity, you know, that is something we should all be aware of. In the future, I think because of PPWR, because of the European legislation coming in that does have airspace restrictions, we will probably follow those because we sell a lot of our product in Europe. So, like the tethered bottle cap, which we don't actually need in this country, we have it because a lot of product is sold in Europe and the UK. You will see the same thing here where it will be more regulated in terms of how something can be packaged and we won't have to complain about it. But I guess overpacking is just one of life's frustrations. We all get annoyed by it. I think it's good for us to know this legislation exists, it's good for us to know that if we have an extreme example, we can photo it, we can complain, and it could lead to genuine change. You just might never hear about it. Additions and corrections. Back in episode 49, we discussed Ozempic pen recycling, and we had Brian send us a WhatsApp about the BD safe clip, which I'd never heard of. Oh, okay. So this was a device to help remove needles from pens and syringes. Basically, it looks like a stapler. That's how I would describe it. It sort of looks like a stapler. It's got a battery, so it's electronic, but you put the needle into one end, and there's a clip that cuts off the needle, and then it's stored inside the safe clip, the thing that looks like a stapler.

SPEAKER_01 27:34

Oh, so it's like an Uber safe sharp spin type thing, is it?

SPEAKER_00 27:38

Yeah Well, basically what it allows you to do is avoid having a sharp spin. Because well, certainly having to carry one around. A lot of the reviews I saw were people who were diabetic saying, Oh, I finally don't have to carry a sharp spin around, I've got this little device I can have in my pocket that's taking all the needles.

SPEAKER_02 27:54

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 27:55

There was a bit of confusion because uh some of the reviews, and this is why I'm raising it in medicine, some of the reviews were talking about how, oh, it's great, you can then just put it in the general bin with all the needles in it. I'm not sure I'd be recommending that. I think uh you would still empty the device into the general spin. No, I would agree with that totally. But uh but a good way of getting rid of needles, and we talked about that, we talked about how you would recycle them, we said they had to go in a sharp spin, lots of listeners saying actually that's easier said than done when you're out and about. So this looked like a really good solution for that. Thank you very much, Brian, for WhatsApp in. We also had tidy happy calm. I like that name. Tidy Happy Calm on Discord. A nice mix. Very nice mix. It's almost like a what three words. I wonder where. Can we look up what three words? What is the what three words? Oh my god, what if this is their address? Oh, yeah. What if they're called tight.

SPEAKER_01 28:52

We can't do this. No, we can't.

SPEAKER_00 28:55

Okay, tidy hampy calm. I'm really sorry if this is your address. But where does it take me? Oh. Iowa.

SPEAKER_01 29:05

Iowa? Okay. Yes. Could be one of our American listeners.

SPEAKER_00 29:09

Oh my goodness, it could be. I'm really sorry if this is your address. It's just as I read it, I thought, oh, it's a what three words.

SPEAKER_01 29:15

Okay, well, we'll just say it's Iowa.

SPEAKER_00 29:17

Okay, so hello to Tidy Happy Calm, who may or may not be from Iowa. Uh, they followed the lead of Eats Runs last week. Eats Runs had asked about a bundle of tape, which we said would be difficult to recycle due to the adhesive. So they'd ripped off loads of tape on their cover box. Well, Tidy Happy Calm had a ball of masking tape. And was asking, could that go in the paper bin? It tears, you know, it's different to plastic tape. What do we reckon?

SPEAKER_01 29:46

I think it's still a bit problematic and sticky, and probably should just be left on the box paper tape.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

Ah yeah, but this is masking tape, so used for painting and things like that. So sh can't even be left on the box. Find a box. Stick one. Okay. That is bad advice. Bad talking rubbish advice. Do not stick your mask joke onto a box. Uh yeah, I think it just goes in the general bin. Please don't add it to a box because it's not getting recycled to you, just you might as well take the sharps to it and be done with it.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

No, I think it's rubbish. Uh it's a sticky mess. Put it in the general rubbish. Probably will get incinerated for energy.

SPEAKER_00 30:35

Very good. And my rubbish news in episode 49, again, we keep referring back to episode 49, included me being annoyed about all the councils around Bristol going to three-weekly general bin collections, which I just think is so important to increase recycling rates. And I was getting annoyed at all these councils doing it. And Chloe on Discord wanted us to give a shout out to East Hertfordshire and North Hertfordshire, who are also going to three-weekly bin collections. And why not? I'm up for shouting at every council that's doing this until Bristol does it.

SPEAKER_01 31:06

Yeah, well done to which council was it? East Hertfordshire and North Hertfordshire.

SPEAKER_00 31:11

Yeah. Quite a few of Bristol Council are going to be at this event tonight when I talk about reuse refill, so I'll just make sure I say a lot. Did you know East Hertfordshire and North Hertfordshire are also doing it? As always, we'd like to take a moment to thank our sponsor, EcoSurety, who are on a mission to rid the world of unnecessary packaging. They help brands navigate the tricky world of extended producer responsibility, but that is not all. They also collaborate on some incredible recycling projects and consumer awareness campaigns for those tough to recycle materials. If you're an organization looking to make smarter packaging choices, check them out at ecosurety.com. And we love getting reviews. As I say every week, it's the thing that helps us grow the most. And you would be amazed, or maybe you wouldn't be amazed, I don't know. I get so many people coming up to me going, I must leave you a review, I must remember to do that. It's like, yeah, let's do it now. Let's do it together. Open your phone. I've never done that. I've never done that. But yeah, it's one of those things, isn't it? We think, oh yeah, but they say every week, and I really should do it. And I would just, honestly, it would be so good. It really helps us out. So if you could just take a moment, if you're on Apple or Spotify particularly, if you just leave us a review, that would be amazing.

SPEAKER_01 32:28

And why would you want to do that? Because you can become Robbie's review of the week.

SPEAKER_00 32:33

Oh well. It's the gift that keeps on giving. It's what people want. It's such a treat. So, yes, Robbie, what is your review this week?

SPEAKER_01 32:40

So it comes in from S Brooks 9, and it starts with the definitely not rubbish. It's a five-star review. Obviously, they talk about rubbish, but this is by far the most interesting podcast on my list. I listen to it on my way to work to preach to people about rubbish. Thanks for providing me with the content I need. This is great.

SPEAKER_00 33:05

Esprooks is going to be loving this. You can complain about your overpacking.

SPEAKER_01 33:10

That is so much ammo, isn't it? If you don't like it, speak to trading standards.

SPEAKER_00 33:14

Yes, completely ready. So thank you so much for that review. And I look forward to the seeing loads of people review this week because I think I've encouraged all those people who have been pausing. You can follow us at rubbishpodcast on all social media. You can email talkingrubbishpodcast at gmail.com or you can WhatsApp us. Also join our Discord. It's the easiest way to engage with me and Robbie and listeners of the show. And the link to all those things is in our show notes, as is the link to our petition, which is about banning the word composed porn dogpoo bags, which can't be composted. So please take a second to go and sign it. So just have a look in the show notes for this episode for all of those links. And for the last couple of weeks, I've been talking about a podcast that I found called How to Academy. So I'd just like to mention them again. It's an incredible podcast with a range of topics on things like how we rewild corners of the world, nurture ourselves and the planet, and how the climate crisis affects our brains and bodies. They've had all sorts of people on it. It's definitely worth checking out. And they're available wherever you get your podcast. So just search How to Academy if you want to have a listen to that one. Rubbish or not? Cheesewax.

SPEAKER_01 34:26

We're talking about cheese wax.

SPEAKER_00 34:29

We are. We had Fox on Discord. Just Fox. On Discord, ask about cheese wax, ask whether it was recyclable. Robbie, do you like a baby bell?

SPEAKER_01 34:39

Not a big baby bell guy, although my daughter has been known to partake.

SPEAKER_00 34:43

Yeah, I love any cheese from uh not baby. Well, I love baby bell, but I love um I love Parmesan. This is gonna be this is the cheese episode. This is gonna be the cheese episode. Yeah. I love any cheese. I love any cheese from the Snowdonia cheese company. They make some lovely cheeses, and all of those are wrapped in wax.

SPEAKER_01 35:05

The Black Bomber. That's my partner's absolute favourite. It's I would describe it as a hypermature cheddar. So mature delicious.

SPEAKER_00 35:14

Well, you can just like me. Well, you can tell her that I also love Black Bomber. It's also my favourite. So we go. That's great. Next time we see each other, I'll make sure we have some. The Black Bomber crew. Okay, nice. Well, let's talk about Babybell though, because that they had lots of information on their website that was quite interesting. So Baby Bell wax is made from paraffin. There's no they they were very clear on the website about this. There's no bees wax, so it's technically vegan. Okay. Is that important? You're eating cheese. But they have a plant-based cheese. So it probably is quite important that it is a vegan packaging.

SPEAKER_01 35:53

Yes. Okay, there's a plant-based alternative they do that's in those little baby bell shops.

SPEAKER_00 35:57

There's a plant-based baby bell now, yes. And on their website they say it's food safe. Now this was a bit weird. So on their website they said our wax is food safe, but they put the food safe in quotation marks. And if anything's ever going to make me think it's not food safe. Why'd you put it in quotation marks?

SPEAKER_01 36:18

I'm not sure what's quite happened there. It's like a smooth. I was so scared. It's like winking after saying food safe.

SPEAKER_00 36:26

Yes, but like the cocktail sticks of last week, it is made of a material that is not collected and it is small. So, Robbie, is cheesewax rubbish or not? What do we think?

SPEAKER_01 36:36

It's rubbish. So not at the curbside. Uh don't be putting it in your food waste bin. As they said, it's not made from natural materials. Although they've not quite said that. Presumably it's oil-based paraffin, isn't it? R rather than beeswax or whatever. So the likelihood of it degrading is probably quite low. Uh so don't put it anywhere near your food waste or your compost bin or whatever. But I mean you could use it to make candles and all sorts of things, I suppose. But um yeah, it's rubbish.

SPEAKER_00 37:07

Are you confident in the candle making? You've done no research on that, are you?

SPEAKER_01 37:11

I'm very confident in the candle making.

SPEAKER_00 37:13

Okay. We're gonna get people right here.

SPEAKER_01 37:15

Do not make candles out of that!

SPEAKER_00 37:19

Well, we'll see. We'll see. If anyone wants to addition or correct Robbie, you're always welcome. So uh that you are absolutely right, it's rubbish, it just goes in the general bin. But there is actually a TerraCycle Babybell program. So gets my classic TerraCycle red alarm, which is really annoying that it's just for Baby Bell. But if you like Babybell, it is a solution. And you can recycle the labels, the nets, the metal class, the wrapper, and the wax through this programme, which to be honest, just served to make me realise how much packaging there is to a baby bell.

SPEAKER_01 37:53

Yeah, no, it's like, why is there so many different ones?

SPEAKER_00 37:56

I had a look and there were two schools in Bristol where I could drop them off to, and that was it. There were two drop-off points in Bristols, they were both schools. I am guessing the students are quite engaged with this. So they're bringing in their baby bell from home, you know, getting their parents to store it up. Not that great for me as a Snowdonia cheese company man. I can't bring that back to the Babybell collection program. But if you're a big fan of Babybell, you could contact those schools and find out if they'd be happy for you to bring it back. It's a public collection point. Um, so you could search your postcode. Again, we'll include that in the link tree. On Babybell's website, they actually mentioned that they've launched paper wrappers, which I don't think I've seen yet. So this is the outer, so the you know the bit wrapped around the wax is like plastic, it's like a cellophane. Yeah, it's kind of like replacing that.

SPEAKER_01 38:40

A little bit see-through, isn't it? It's like red and a bit see-through, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:44

Yeah, and they're planning to transition that fully to paper by the end of 2026. And they are saying that's recyclable, but that is really small, so I would be putting that in a used envelope if you want my advice on that. It's like quality street wrappers, but yeah. Similar to the selection box stuff, isn't it? Robbie, as a side note, I've got a bonus question for you. Packaging or not? Oh. Is cheesewax packaging?

SPEAKER_01 39:11

Is cheesewax part of the packaging? It's for the preservation of the product. It might well be. I'm gonna go with yes it is. And you're gonna tell me.

SPEAKER_00 39:25

It's not. No.

SPEAKER_01 39:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 39:27

Believe it or not, this is a great episode to do over packing on it and completely unintentional, as it's actually the same piece of legislation, the packaging essential requirements, that says cheese wax is not packaging. Okay. Does it give a reason? Er yes, sort of, I think. We'll come on to that. So the essential requirements, there's a schedule towards the end that lists things that are not packaging, and it includes flower pots that stay with a plant throughout its life.

SPEAKER_01 39:55

Ah yes, knew that. Tea bags. Classic, not packaging, sausage skins. Obviously.

SPEAKER_00 40:02

Graveside candles. I feel like I need to comment on that one. And cheese wax. Graveside candles. It's mad, isn't it? And I think this goes back to the cheesewax. So where things tend to get complicated on whether they're packaging or not is if they are needed to make the product usable.

SPEAKER_01 40:21

Oh yeah, during its life, I see. Because you leave, you don't just unpeel the wax and then put your cheese in the fridge. The wax stays on it while you're using the cheese. Is that what you're doing?

SPEAKER_00 40:31

I mean, I think cheesewax is the loosest one of these. Like teabags, I can understand, right? You're putting your water in, you need the teabag for it to function. Yeah. Coffee pods are also not packaging for the same reason. I suspect graveside candles, which is a very specific one, this is actually the containers for the candles. And I think the reason they say graveside is because you're definitely going to leave that burning, like and leave. Yeah. And so you leaving means that the holder needs to do the job. You can't take the candle out and just leave it in the grass. No, it's certainly not if you've made it out of baby bell. Absolutely not. If you if indeed you can. But oh my goodness, how specific is that? Graveside candles. Anyway. So yeah, cheese wax, I think, is like the loosest of all of those. You could definitely have the product having removed the wax, you could later eat the product. But I think their argument is because it preserves it, because it keeps it food safe, because the cheese would be unstable out of it, it is not packaging.

SPEAKER_01 41:32

Not packaging, okay, got it wrong. It's a fair cop.

SPEAKER_00 41:36

Yeah, packaging or not, new feature. I think we've done them all. Those are all the not packaging. DVD cases, that wouldn't be a packaging. Uh whatever interesting ones are there? Blood bags, money bags? Blood and money. Blood and money is not a product.

SPEAKER_01 41:51

You've got them all just rolling off the tongue, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:53

I've got quite a few of them, yeah. I don't know them all. Wrapping paper. If you buy wrapping paper, it's not packaging. But if someone in a shop offers to give wrap a product for you, it is packaging. And that's the end of packaging or not. Rubbish news. So for me, this week, I uh a news story I found that I enjoyed was that retailers have announced their intention to enable reusable packaging. Very timely, considering I'm about to go off to a refill event that I'm talking at. So this was an open letter signed by Aldi, Asda, Co-op, Liddell, Morrison, Zicardo, Sainsbury's, Tesco, and Waitrose. I don't think there's anyone missing there, is there? It's a big group, yeah. That's a lot of supermarkets supported by Innovate UK, RAP, DEFRA, the Northern Ireland Department of Agriculture, Environmental and Rural Affairs, and Scottish and Welsh Government. They have stated that they would like to collaborate on an approach that has the potential to deliver a reduction in single-use packaging by 2030. Look, it's an interesting letter. I'm glad they wrote it. Kudos to all of those get I have done enough of these things to know that to get all of those supermarkets to sign an open letter is hard work. But I do think this letter has is quite vague in terms of what's actually going to be delivered, and it does feel a little bit like the plastic pack to me, which is like a common ambition, and we're going to work together on something, but we're going to set a date quite far in the future, and we're going to say, look, we're going to try and reduce single-use packaging by this. And I think because the plastic packed had lots of targets that, to be blunt, haven't been met, they're now just saying things like, we will look to do refill to reduce single use packaging by 2030. So I think there's good things that come out of this letter. It will certainly reassure supply chains that reuse is worth investing in. I really hope it leads to meaningful change.

SPEAKER_01 43:53

Yeah, no, I I totally agree with that sentiment. And really, this is just a declaration of intent that I hope comes to. Pass, but the actual solutions are yet to be delivered, aren't they? So we'll wait and see. But certainly it's brilliant to see so many of the I mean, almost all the UK leading grocery retailers are part of this letter, which is a good start that they're definitely keen to collaborate.

SPEAKER_00 44:18

Definitely. It's got all the right starting points. Let's keep an eye on what actually happens. And I should say this letter follows a report released by Go Unpackaged, which um which I was part of. So I was part of the working group to develop this report, and we helped fund it. This report was looking at how you could transition 30% of our packaging to be reusable, and they found that if you did this, it could create £136 million yearly saving just on EPR costs, a 95% reduction in CO2 equivalent emissions, and the creation of 13,000 jobs. So it was pretty compelling, I think. The reuse economy is definitely en route.

SPEAKER_01 44:58

And for my rubbish news this week, I saw that Wales have made a big announcement. This could be in addition to previous episodes on deposit return schemes for containers across the UK. You'll remember, if you listen to that episode, that we were talking about England, Scotland, and Northern Ireland because Wales had wanted to do their own thing. And their own thing included having glass in scope, not just plastic bottles and uh soft drinks cans. However, Welsh Government last week came up with a statement that said they are going to align their timelines with the rest of the UK so that there is a seamless, unified UK-wide scheme from the get-go in October 2027. However, they did say that they were insistent and will continue to explore glass being in scope of the deposit return scheme, specifically returnable glass and refillable glass. So big segment on reuse and refill today. But according to BBC News, from the start, there won't be a deposit applied to those glass bottles. So whether they're being screened, is that right? Yeah, that's right. So whether they're being scanned or not to stop fraud and exactly. So it's going to be a little bit confusing, and we expect way more news to come out in the c literally in the coming weeks and months, so we'll keep listeners up to date on it. But clearly Wales have thought we can't be disjointed with the rest of the UK because people travel across that Wales-England border all the time, every single day. People are commuting across that border, and you can't have two separate systems. However, respect to Wales, they have said that they want to increase the uh the reuse of glass and just the reuse of packaging, and the ministers really targeted this as one of the key things that they can do to try and enforce producers of packaging to move tr transition from single-use glass to returnable glass. So I think it's one of those watch this space, because I can't tell give you any more uh information about uh exactly how the two things are going to interact. But the big headline is that Wales will have the same deposit return scheme for plastic bottles and aluminium cans by October 2027 and will be included in scope of what the deposit management organisation, DMO UK, are looking at over the course of the coming months.

SPEAKER_00 47:48

And do you know that's so good that glass isn't going to have a deposit, because if you remember a few weeks ago there was this report about uh littering and they were saying that deposit reduces littering, and I was asking whether actually was it the deposit or was it the fact that you suddenly have bins everywhere? We'll find out, because the glass won't have a deposit. Will it get a high return rate as well?

SPEAKER_01 48:08

Yeah, exactly. Without a deposit. Will it still be collected back? Yeah, we'll wait and see.

SPEAKER_00 48:13

We're getting my experiment that I've always been looking for. This is great. Rubbish question. This is a question from James Piper, uh, co-host of Talking Rubbish. Why do fizzy bottle threads have gaps in them?

SPEAKER_01 48:32

I don't quite understand what you mean by this. Great.

SPEAKER_00 48:36

I bought a Coke Zero on the way in. I knew you would say that.

unknown 48:40

Right.

SPEAKER_00 48:40

So for those on social media, let me open this. Hang on. I'm literally opening live. What if it's been shaken up? This could be hilarious. This is gonna be one of those. Okay. You ready? Ready for the outtake? Oh, you get a little fiz. I don't know if you people heard that. Okay. Okay, it's it's terrible. So social media. So if you open a fizzy bottle today or whenever, don't buy one for the uh uh don't encourage consumption. So don't buy a fizzy bottle just because you want to see these threads. But if you have a fizzy bottle, you see the thread at the top. Hang on, where's my camera? There. Right. See there's a gap.

SPEAKER_01 49:22

The thread doesn't just go all the way straight against the road. There's a little gap. Yeah. Okay, fine.

SPEAKER_00 49:27

All fizzy bottles will have that gap. Now, the reason they have that gap, and there is a reason I'm asking this question, by the way, which I'll explain in a second. The reason they have that gap is when you take the lid off a fizzy bottle, you need that CO2 to vent out. So when the bottle is filled and closed, the CO2 is dissolved in the liquid, right? So it's not building pressure. Yeah. I mean, over enough time it will, of course, but you know, assuming you buy it in a reasonable time frame, it's not building huge amounts of pressure. So when you open it, as you're opening it, you want the CO2 to vent, which is where you get that pfft as you open the bottle. And it's coming out of the gaps in those in that thread.

SPEAKER_01 50:07

Okay. Otherwise it would be trying to travel around the thread and build up pressure or something like that. Well it would get stuck by the lid.

SPEAKER_00 50:14

Yeah. So the lid also has these gaps in. I keep forgetting where my camera is. The lid also has these gaps in. So as you rotate it, the CO2's coming out. Yeah. This will be great on social media. Please follow us at rubbish popcorn where I will I will put this video up. Okay, so that's what's happening. That's why there's gaps in fizzy bottles. If you buy a still bottle, they might use the same bottle, so there may be them, but typically a still bottle, a non-carbonated drink, will not have it.

SPEAKER_01 50:41

I'm gonna be checking it on every bottle of fizzy drink that I s I uh procure uh for the next few weeks.

SPEAKER_00 50:49

Please report back. Now, why is this a question? Why have I asked this question? Because Walmart has just recalled 850,000 reusable stainless steel bottles. Because if you stored a carbonated drink in them, then when you open them, the lid could pop off.

SPEAKER_01 51:08

Oh no, because it doesn't have these gaps.

SPEAKER_00 51:11

The threads do not have the gaps, and obviously, because it's a reusable bottle, you don't know how people are gonna use it. So because they don't have the gaps, the CO2 isn't venting, and very sadly, two people have suffered permanent vision loss because the lid has hit them in the eye. Oh no. So if you have a reusable bottle and it does not have gaps in the thread, and you'll see what I mean. If you don't if you're not on social media, eventually when you buy a fizzy bottle, have a look at the thread, you'll see the gaps. Please do not store carbonated drinks in it. So if you're gonna use reusable bottles, don't store fizzy drinks in it unless it's got the gap in the threads.

SPEAKER_01 51:50

So I've got to look at my soda stream bottle when I get home for these vents because Oh yeah, can you report back? Can we do an additions corrections?

SPEAKER_00 51:59

Let's do a report back. You know I love my soda stream. Oh, additions corrections next week. Okay, Robbie, you are can you make a note of this? Because you're gonna forget.

SPEAKER_01 52:10

I'll make it, I will forget. You're right. Okay, wow, what a cliffhanger. We really are teasing them in for the next one.

SPEAKER_00 52:24

Residual rubbish, part of the episode where Robbie and I talk about something that has made us laugh or cry. Mine today made me laugh. I was in waitros. This story has no shade on Waitros. I love them. I love their free coffee. They provide a free coffee to people who have their loyalty card. I couldn't actually see any single-use cups, which I thought was good. I can't remember. They removed the single-use cups for a bit, and then I think they brought them back, and now they're trialling some stuff with uh like reusable cups that you can borrow. We'll talk about that another day. But I couldn't see any single-use cups, so I think people do bring their own. You gotta bring your own. I was in like the fruit and veg aisle, just like, and I this was only like yesterday. I was thinking, what's my residual rubbish gonna be for this week? And I was getting some fruit and veg ais, and I heard this guy getting told off by one of the staff in Waitros. He said, You haven't got a lid on your free coffee. You haven't got a lid on your coffee. Like it health and safety, you could spill that, it could hurt someone, you've got to have a lid.

SPEAKER_01 53:25

Oh, okay. Yeah, often on the trains they're very insistent about the lid, aren't they? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:30

So the guy in Waitrose was like, you know, the guy shopping was like, I'm so I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. The member of staff was like, health and safety, health and safety, health and safety. Which I completely understand, hot coffee, you don't want to be walking around the store doing your shopping, carrying a basket, holding a hot coffee with no lid. What he actually said was, I'm really sorry, I couldn't find my cup. I couldn't find my reusable cup. Now, this was enough to make me spin round because I thought, what's this guy using?

SPEAKER_01 53:55

Okay, so he's just brought a coffee cup, a mug in or something, is he? China mug.

SPEAKER_00 53:59

He was using a washed-out pickle jar. Really? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:04

Oh my word. That is very resourceful. Kudos to that guy.

SPEAKER_00 54:09

It was a glass jar. You know, screw top lid.

SPEAKER_01 54:13

Why didn't he have the screw-top lid? You could see that cinder thread.

SPEAKER_00 54:16

Yeah. I would have punched a hole in that lid and put the straw in.

SPEAKER_01 54:21

That's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 54:23

I said put a straw in then. I'm not sure I would do that. Say no to the straw. What would I do? Cut a hole in to freeze.

SPEAKER_01 54:30

Reusable straw, come on. Uh metal reusable straw.

SPEAKER_00 54:33

Yeah, there you go. That's the answer.

SPEAKER_01 54:34

It must have been an iced coffee as well, given the weather recently.

SPEAKER_00 54:37

Yeah, it was a hot coffee. How hot was that glass getting? Oh my word. I don't think you have an iced option in Waitra. Maybe you do, but he's got asbestos hands. I bet that glass was getting hot, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:49

That's amazing. Well, I say kudos to the guy, actually. I'm on his side. I'm happy for him not to need a lid if it means that he's being that resourceful and not using a single use cup. Good on you, buddy. So my one, it definitely didn't make me laugh. It made me frustrated. It didn't make me cry either.

SPEAKER_00 55:09

So it's that it's the It's just the emoji, it's the emoji section.

SPEAKER_01 55:13

It's the emoji section, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:15

So I'm gonna change it from laugh to feel an emoji.

SPEAKER_01 55:18

So the James Piper Righteous Indignation Emoji. It's been a heat wave in the UK. So of course we need a fan in the house. Did all the research, lots of research, because I don't like to buy electrical equipment without knowing which the best one. Go on the I literally go on the which guide to see the ratings of them because I think I'm probably gonna have this fan in my life for the next 20 years, so I want to get it right. So I actually find it very stressful buying anything brand new to me because I've got to do all this research to get the right one, and then I've got to find a secondhand one or a refurbished one on eBay so that I'm not buying a brand new one either. So this is a this is a peek into my life here of uh my conscious consumption. Anyway, got the fan, brilliant, was delivered very quickly, uh great retailer. The thing didn't turn on. So I'm there pressing the button, looking at the instructions, which were very simple. There is an on-off switch on it, one of those tower fan type things. Can't remember the brand actually. And then put the batteries in the remote, because it's remote controlled as well. Still tried to turn it on, wouldn't work. Messaged back to the retailer to say, look, this thing's faulty. It's supposed to be seller refurbished, uh secondhand, but sort of as new kind of thing. Can I please have a return? They came back and said, Nope, can't have a return until we've seen a video of what the fault is.

SPEAKER_00 57:00

So I had to unpack this thing again. This is like when the Amazon says, Can you please send proof your item wasn't delivered and people just sent a picture with their hand.

SPEAKER_01 57:11

I have not received it. I've not received it.

SPEAKER_00 57:13

Yeah, what's the photo? So what you sent a video of the fan not working?

SPEAKER_01 57:19

So I sent a fan of me just like hitting an on-off switch and nothing happening, which I mean was a waste of time. And then I also videoed up the cord to show that it was plugged in at the wall in case they were trying to get me on that one uh and that the socket was working. It was like a five-second video. Sent it to them, and they were like, Yes, the item appears not to be switching on, sir. It's like, okay, I could have told you that. And in fact, I did. We will issue a full refund, but please dispose of the item, we're not gonna courier it back. So it's like that is absolutely disgraceful, isn't it? So they've basically just said, I'm now their waste disposal uh outlet. And while I agree that there's no point in getting a courier involved to send it back to them for them to just put it in the electrical waste anyway, it's still not great customer service, is it? So now I've got a non-working fan. I'm still waiting for the refund. This was only yesterday, by the way. So uh I'm sure I'll get the refund today or tomorrow. But what I'm going to do is to try and turn this whole story around, because as you can tell, I'm very frustrated by the whole experience. Shout out to our local repair shop, uh Sparks in Bristol. Uh it's a whole group of different organisations who've taken over the old Marks and Spencer's building there, and there is electrical repairs. So I'm hoping to take this fan over to get it fixed for a few quid, and then I'll have a basically free fan. So, naughty, naughty retailer, you did a bad job, but I'm still hoping to turn it round.

SPEAKER_00 58:59

Thank you so much, Robbie. And as always, thank you all for listening. Thank you for the reviews and engagement. We love getting to talk to you each week. It's just so much fun. And I've really enjoyed today. It was legislation heavy, but actually I've had a good laugh. I've really enjoyed that. Hopefully, you did too. You can join our Discord, follow us on social media at rubbishpodcast. You can email talkingrubbishpodcast at gmail.com or you can WhatsApp us and everything that I've just mentioned and everything we've discussed today can be found in our link tree. And the details of all of those things and our link tree can be found in our show notes.

SPEAKER_01 59:32

Including that link to trading standards, which people are going to be very interested to see.

SPEAKER_00 59:38

Trading standards are gonna be pretty annoyed at us. They're gonna be so busy. As always, see you next bin day. Bye. Bye.