52. How landfills actually work

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James Piper: Hello. Welcome to Talking Rubbish, your weekly podcast, delving deep into the world of recycling and discussing the truth behind snappy headlines and one sided stories. In this episode we will discuss how landfills work. Is a sandwich pack rubbish or not? And I have a question about putting tape in the flexible plastic bin. I'm James Piper, author of the Rubbish Book and I'm joined by Robbie Staniforth, my far from rubbish friend. Good morning, Robbie.

Robbie Staniforth: Hi, James.

James Piper: Episode 52, you know what that means.

Robbie Staniforth: I know. Anniversary.

James Piper: Yeah, I know. It does feel like we've celebrated a lot. We've had like the episode 50 and now done a year.

Robbie Staniforth: Done a year, 100,000 downloads. We were celebrating that too. But it's good to celebrate, isn't it, these wins.

James Piper: Yeah, very good. So it's not quite our anniversary because of the way maths works. I think it's like officially probably episode 53 because you have to complete it. 52 weeks.

Robbie Staniforth: Semantics, James.

James Piper: I think this episode's going out the 24th of July, and we started on the 1st of August, but at some point in that week, it's our anniversary.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, great. Well, a year in the bag very soon.

James Piper: Yeah. And I was trying to reflect, what are we going to say for episode 52? And I. I mentioned in episode one that I had originally planned this podcast to be with my wife, Ellie. Yes. And very, very recently I was going through voice notes on my phone.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, yeah.

James Piper: For ages. And I found a voice note from 2022 of Ellie and me rehearsing our intro.

Robbie Staniforth: And how good does it sound? Much better than me and you. Is it.

James Piper: Should we play it? Should we let the listeners listen to it? Now, I haven't got permission yet from my wife to play this, so I'm gonna have to record this and then go and get permission. So hopefully people will now hear. Welcome to the Rubbish Podcast, a complete guide to the world of recycling, hosted by James Piper, author of the Rubbish Book and my not so Rubbish wife, Ellie Piper. Hello.

Robbie Staniforth: Hi.

James Piper: I suspect far from Rubbish friend has probably landed better than not so Rubbish Wife.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, that's. Doesn't quite have the same ring to it.

James Piper: Yeah, I was honestly, we were travelling, I was so excited about starting a podcast. I had this memory of like sitting in a hostel in Indonesia, you know, sweltering heat in Indonesia, with my laptop out, trying to find theme music and buying the Rubbish Podcast domain in this little hostel because I was so excited about starting a podcast. And then I thought I got home and we just shelved it, we just paused and it Was only when I was thinking actually you and I could do something pretty cool that we decided to restart it. So, yeah, on the year anniversary. It's so nice reflecting on this stuff. And I was actually having a clean out of my house and I actually found a notebook where I made loads and loads of notes on a plane. And I can't remember where the plane was going, but as part of our travelling, I bought this notebook and I was like, I'll just make notes of topics we could cover in the podcast. And it's so funny because I genuinely found it a couple of weeks ago, looked through it and I'm like, we've covered loads of this. It says like oprl, possible interview with Alice. And then there's like poly tag, possible interview with other Alice. And it's just unbelievable. So many things we've covered. And these. This is years ago, you know, when I first sat down to think about it. So I'll share some pictures of that notepad on social media. So follow us at Rubbish podcast on Insta and I'll put it up there. And Robby, I don't want to offend you, but I do think Ellie, my wife, would have made an amazing podcast co host. You know why I think that?

Robbie Staniforth: Go on then.

James Piper: Well, because last night I got her to check my episode description before it goes live. You know, I always get her just to check.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, okay. The wording and stuff.

James Piper: Yeah, because the episode description goes out now, you know, what does the paragraph say? She took one look at sign our dog petition, our petition about dog poo bags and said, why aren't you calling it a pootition?

Robbie Staniforth: Oh God, that's a missed opportunity. That's what I'm here for as well. God d***.

James Piper: Yeah. So sign our pootition.

Robbie Staniforth: Yes.

James Piper: I'll change the wording in the descriptions as of today. Trash talk. So the trash talk today is about landfill. We've done so much on landfill over the months. We sort of talked about Scotland banning landfill. We've talked about how not much of our waste goes there anymore because we focus so much on incineration and recycling. And I thought it'd be worth us covering how a landfill actually works.

Robbie Staniforth: Have you actually done any of this at school? Do you remember it from school? Like very basics of a landfill site. I,

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Robbie Staniforth: I barely remember it, but it was a like topic for one lesson, really. I just remember the word leachate. That's about all I got. So don't expect me to lead this.

James Piper: I mean, if you'd asked me before, I Got into recycling. How a landfill worked. I would say it's a pit in the ground where they put rubbish.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah. I mean, I've learned about it and I still feel that's an accurate description. I couldn't tell you much more.

James Piper: Well, it is a very complicated engineering marvel, as we will go through, and they are just fascinating things. They are not just pits in the ground. Otherwise this would be a very short trash talk. So there's around 540 landfills that are active in the UK right now.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, wow. That many? That's more than I thought.

James Piper: Yeah. And I was trying to think about this. I don't think I could tell you where our nearest landfill is. No, I have no idea. When I grew up, I could have told you I knew, you know, because I grew up around the Portsmouth area and I knew where our nearest landfill was. I don't know now. And I guess that's a reflection of how far it's reduced because there's over 20,000 closed landfill sites.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, wow. Okay.

James Piper: So landfills don't last forever and they get closed. And over 20,000 have closed and not many have reopened. You know, not many new ones have come online because lots of our waste isn't going there anymore. So we've only got around 500 active. And there was a time in the UK where we had around 20,000 active.

Robbie Staniforth: Wow, okay. And I remember growing up, our nearest landfill closed and it got capped. You know, so they sort of lay the grass spoiler. Hopefully you're going to tell me what capping actually is, because I don't know. But then it became a golf course. There was literally a golf course over the landfill site.

James Piper: Yeah, very good. You've got to keep those holes quite shallow. I'm gonna reach in to get the ball out and it's like, oh, this is an aluminium can. Why would an aluminium can be in a landfill?

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, gosh. They'll be writing in, James. They'll be writing in.

James Piper: This is a banana peel. As we have said before, we don't send much to a landfill. We send about 5% of household waste there nowadays. It used to be way higher. If we compare that to somewhere like the U.S. the U.S. sends about 50% of their waste to landfill. So there are still places where landfill is a big part of waste management. The UK is not really in that space anymore. The data I found from the government suggested that in 2022 there was about 13 million tonnes of municipal waste which went to landfill. Just put this in perspect perspective back in 2010, this was 25 million. So down from 25 million in 2010 to around 13 in 2022. And this is falling each year. It continues to fall. I guess the question today is, is it a good place to send our rubbish? What do you think, Robbie? Is it good to have a landfill?

Robbie Staniforth: I assumed it was like the last worst case scenario and we should never be sending anything there, but I don't know, you're going to tell me something different.

James Piper: There are definitely people who would disagree with you. I think there's enough frustration around incineration and the health concerns of incineration. And if you can do a landfill properly, it's not a bad place to send our waste. And I think we'll do a separate trash talk on this because I do want this kind of, this question of is where is the best place to send our plastic? Is it best to incinerate it, landfill it or recycle it? And we'll just sort of come on to that another day because there's some interesting things in that. But it is a big question. And part of the reason we send less to landfill. And Robby, we've talked about this before is because we have the landfill tax.

Robbie Staniforth: Yes. Yeah. This has been going for many years, hasn't it? And people around the industry of recycling say that it's been one of the best mechanisms, best government policy mechanisms, haven't they?

James Piper: Yeah, absolutely. So what's the current landfill tax rate, Robbie?

Robbie Staniforth: The current landfill tax rate is £126.15 tonne. And this was just £10 back in the year 2000. So over 25 years it's gone up over tenfold. And, you know, this permanent increase over time has allowed and enabled alternative solutions to landfill, such as, as we mentioned before, incineration, but also recycling too.

James Piper: So that's it that, you know, we're using less landfill, we're not sending our waste there as much. So let's talk about how it works. And I need to give a shout out to Practical Engineering, who did an amazing YouTube video on this. I saw it a few months ago and it helped me realise that we needed to do an episode on how landfill works. And I just. I will share that in our link tree because it's definitely worth watching that video. I'm a visual learner, despite doing a podcast. And so it is definitely worth going and looking at that video because they do lots of demos of how it works. But before you put anything in a landfill, you have to choose a site. Right? And sometimes this is forgotten. Sometimes

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James Piper: people think, oh, well, it's easy to choose a site. You're just going to dig a hole in the ground. Right. But digging is really expensive. So you don't want to dig a hole in the ground. What you want to do is kind of build your landfill up. You know, you want to create a pile, and that's why you have to close landfills, because eventually you just can't pile waste on anymore. It's going to get too unstable. So you're either finding, you know, a site that already has a hole, already has depression in the land so that you can. You can fill it, or you're building up. But it doesn't make a huge amount of sense to find a flatbed of land and go, right, we're going to dig a hole.

Robbie Staniforth: Okay, I see.

James Piper: Your job for a landfill is to maximise waste. Maximise the waste. Sorry, not to maximise waste. To maximise the waste you put in the landfill whilst minimising cost and environmental impact. Nobody wants to maximise waste. I don't think so. Typically, landfills will build up. They'll look for things like shallow slopes to increase stability. They'll look for wide spaces. One of the things I found really interesting that I hadn't considered and was in this video was that it can't be too close to an airport.

Robbie Staniforth: Really? Why is that?

James Piper: Because lots of birds like being around landfills. And there's one thing planes don't like, which is birds.

Robbie Staniforth: Birds going through the propellers. Oh, jeez. Or the jet engines. I don't think they often have props these days, do they?

James Piper: And for obvious reasons, can't be too near parks, homes, etc. So you're already quite restricted in where you could put that landfill. It's why the US has this landfill mindset, because it's just got so much land and they're able to go, okay, well, we can put that out of town, we can put that out of the city. With the uk, I mean, we do have lots of green space, but a lot of it is protected. A lot of it is greenfield sites. And so it's much harder to find sites that fit that bill. So that's driven recycling and incineration. That's not going to be the primary reason, but it's just a byproduct, the fact that actually you've got to choose a site.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, it's either going to sort of spoil the countryside or be too close to where people live and an eyesore and smell and all the rest of it from. If you build it somewhere near an urban area.

James Piper: Yeah, absolutely. And as I said, you can't just put rubbish in a hole. And you've mentioned a word there, leachate. You said that earlier on.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah. Don't ask me to explain what it actually is. It's the nasty stuff that comes out of the waste, I assume.

James Piper: I like to call it rubbish juice.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, God, yeah. Really? That's much more descriptive. It is pretty horrible stuff.

James Piper: I mean, we can all imagine it, can't we? You do your food waste, you lift your bag out, it's like, ugh. That grim liquid left at the bottom of the bin, that's your leachate. And it'll get worse if it rains, of course. So if you have a giant pile of rubbish, you know, and let's say it's in a hole, let's say you found a site that had a depression in the land and say you started putting stuff into it. When it rains, what's going to happen is that leachate is just going to go through the soil and that's going to be really dangerous because it could enter water courses and it just causes all sorts of problems. So the first thing you've got to do is line your landfill. And I mean, literally think of a swimming pool.

Robbie Staniforth: Okay. Just seal it all off at the bottom with some sort of sheeting or cladding of some type.

James Piper: Yeah. So there's two ways they go about doing it. So you can have a thick sheet of plastic to form a membrane, or you can use soil. There are other things you could use, I guess, most of the time. Landfill companies, I think, use a bit of both. They'll use a regulated plastic membrane that they know isn't going to rip, and they'll use soil as a more natural option as well. But they'll tend to use a mix of the both. And they've got to make sure that they're sealing that lantholin, the liquid can't get out of it.

Robbie Staniforth: Okay.

James Piper: Now, of course, then you've got a problem because now you do have a swimming pool. You have something that's filling with rubbish juice. So, yeah, as you say, it's now filling up with water. And so what you need to do is introduce piping. And what they do is they put, like, perforated pipes at the bottom of the landfill so that as the leachate kind of starts filling up the liquid, I don't want to call it rubbish juice, the liquid goes into the perforated pipes and then they can get all of that out so they can drain it out of the system. So again, it's just literally like a plug hole in a bath. If we're using this analogy, you're just having lots and lots of drains along the site to get rid of the liquid.

Robbie Staniforth: Okay. But that liquid then presumably goes off to be treated or something. It's actually like piped out separately so they can do something with it. So it doesn't just go into the water table.

James Piper: Yeah. Managing that liquid is actually one of the biggest costs of dealing with the landfill. So some send it off for treatment, some treat it on site. Depends on how the landfill has been built. But basically they're cleaning that liquid and then they will discharge it into a sewer

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James Piper: or a water course so it'll get cleaned. Now, landfills tend to work in. They call them cells. So sort of this. Yeah, like little patches. So you know, you've got a whole landfill, but you're only working in one little bit at a time. So they call those cells. And each cell is literally built up with waste layer by layer. Rubbish is really airy. It's got lots and lots of air. And if you think about what you send in your general waste bin, you know, if you were to crush that right down as the tippers do, as they come around to our driveways, you know, they crush the waste down because they're removing the air. They have to keep doing that. In landfills, space is a premium, so they're trying to constantly crush our waste down. So they have trucks driving over the landfill all the time, which will you. Which will compress it down. These are trucks that have compactors with teeth blades, and they're rolling over the site, getting rid of all the air. So the process of a landfill is pretty straightforward. You're tipping rubbish into a cell, you're driving over it a lot with things that are compacting it, and you're trying to get all the air out. Now, at the end of every day, I think it is every day. I went on a few waste management websites just to check this, but I'm pretty sure it is every day. They are covering up the work that they have done. And this is to stop pests, birds, all sorts of things. Water leaking out.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, it's not so that the boss doesn't see.

James Piper: So they put a layer of soil over the top or something over the top. It could be a tarp, it could be anything. But they're putting something over the top and essentially capping off the work that they've done that day. They can also hold back some kind of more inert waste as the covering. So we talked about this, I think, back in episode 47. Ah, yes, we talked about what happens to our skip waste. And I mentioned that they're leftover. So after they're taken out all the stuff that they wanted, they were left with what's called fines.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah.

James Piper: And the skip company said to me, what we do, most of those finds are a mix of soil and waste, and we send that to landfill to separate the layers.

Robbie Staniforth: And it's kind of rubberly stuff as well and dust or whatever, but it's, it's got no wood or metal and all those bits left in those have been picked out already.

James Piper: Yes, exactly. So once a layer is completed, it gets covered with soil and matting. So you've got a situation where you've got this, essentially a swimming pool. You're filling it all the time with waste, and every day you're then covering up your work to make sure it's fine. And when you've completed that layer, you are formally putting a new, you know, putting something on top like soil and rubble or a tarp or something matting to close off that layer. So essentially you're building like, I don't know, a horrendous cake, a layered cake. Constantly layering it, layer, layer, layer, layer all the way through so that you, you're reducing the risk of, you know, rubbish. Well, you're basically trying to stop the rubbish break down. Breaking down.

Robbie Staniforth: Okay, fine. You're trying to seal it in like a rubbish lasagna.

James Piper: Exactly. How many analogies can come up with layered things? At some point, your landfill is done. You know, a landfill should last for decades. I think they last about 30 to 50 years. But at some point you're full, you can't take any more. And so you need to close the landfill. What you're essentially doing here is creating a tomb of rubbish.

Robbie Staniforth: Whoa. Okay, what's the.

James Piper: Is there another layer analogy?

Robbie Staniforth: Not the kind of tomb I'd want to be going to visit on my holidays.

James Piper: No. And what your aim here is, is to keep the liquid and smells in forever. You know, as you said, your landfill near you has become a golf course.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah. Okay.

James Piper: That members club is not going to be happy if the liquid and smell start coming out. So you've got to think about how to cap that to make sure that things aren't going to get out. And what I, I had a look at Veolia's website here to see how they do it. And I mean, they talked about this very complicated deodorising system around the perimeter of a landfill deodorising system.

Robbie Staniforth: Okay.

James Piper: Which it appeared to just be like air freshener coming out of the fence around the edge. I don't know what it was. It could have been like a Glade 2 in one or a Febreze.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, a giant can of oust on the.

James Piper: They were like. If you see. What did I say? If you see smoke coming out of the fence, don't worry, that's just air freshener. It's like, wow. Okay. But, you know, if you cap it properly, I'm not sure you need to do it. I don't think the golf course is going to have, you know, air freshener coming out of the holes.

Robbie Staniforth: Sounds quite pleasant.

James Piper: And the COVID is usually the

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James Piper: same as the base. So this is what you're doing. So you're basically taking that soil and plastic membrane that you used as the base and you're doing the same again as the COVID And typically they will then want something like grass to grow because what they're trying to do is stop the soil kind of moving around too much to allow smells and liquid out. So grass or something is going to bond that soil together and keep it quite secure.

Robbie Staniforth: Okay. Yeah. It stabilises the whole thing. Wildflowers. Or leave it to sort of pasture type thing.

James Piper: Exactly. Now, even though you've closed off that landfill, lots of chemistry and biology is still happening. And that chemistry and biology can create pressure, it can create smells, it can create gases. So you need a way to capture those things because what you don't want is the pressure to build and build and build, and then the landfill essentially explodes. Okay. Which. And if it's a golf course, that's not going to be good. So you're trying to make sure that you're dealing with the gases that are being created. This is a really important point of landfills. And it's come up a lot when we've talked about our petition. Thanks, Ellie. It's come up a lot when we've talked about our petition, which is we don't believe that necessarily biodegradable plastic will degrade in landfill. Now, it will degrade like anything might degrade in a landfill, but the way it's degrading is not the way it's been designed to degrade. So, okay. It is unlikely to degrade. You know, most landfills just are quite stable. But if liquid gets in there and there's anaerobic digestion and there's microbes, which there could be, then things will start breaking Down. The trouble is, how they're breaking down is creating methane. Because it's an anaerobic digestion process. Ultimately it's creating methane. It's not biodegrading like we imagine Biodegradable plastic to break down into water and nothing.

Robbie Staniforth: And methane, four times as bad as carbon dioxide.

James Piper: 28 times.

Robbie Staniforth: 28 times.

James Piper: Nice.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, wow. Okay, I need to get my math straight.

James Piper: Wow. Hang on a second. We got two very different answers here.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, I know what I'm getting confused with the symbol for methane. Has that got a 4 in it? Yeah, CH4, that's what I'm getting confused with.

James Piper: Okay. So According to the U.S. environmental Protection Agency, methane is more than 28 times as potent as carbon dioxide.

Robbie Staniforth: I need to go back to my carbon literacy training here or just remember the right stat to be honest.

James Piper: Yes. Hopefully they're not listening.

Robbie Staniforth: They're going to be fuming 28 times more. And it's CH4.

James Piper: So you've got methane being created. And what you need to do is pipe that methane out. So they add vertical pipes to capture the gas and to take the gas away, and that stops the pressure building. But now you've got a load of methane. So they've got to capture that methane and do something with it. And we talked in our carbon offsetting episode, which was a couple of episodes ago, episode 49, we talked about the fact that removing methane from a landfill is one of the carbon offset activities because you're preventing that greenhouse gas entering the atmosphere. So the gas is collected into storage tanks and then a couple of things could happen to it. It could be burnt off in a flare stack.

Robbie Staniforth: Now seems a waste.

James Piper: I ended up in a rabbit hole now with these flare stacks. So I think what that does is it turns methane into carbon dioxide.

Robbie Staniforth: That's 20 times less.

James Piper: Turning CH4 into CO2, which I think is you just burn it and it burns into carbon dioxide. But you, you're still admitting carbon dioxide is just less bad than methane.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, I see. Yeah.

James Piper: The other thing you can do with it is feed it into like an energy generation plant where it can be used to turn a turbine to create electricity. So to me, that feels much better. I don't know how much of each of those things happens in the uk like, as in which we're more likely to experience. I suspect we're more likely to generate electricity from it because that's going to have value. Value.

Robbie Staniforth: Collect the methane. Why not use it as a biogas or whatever? Yeah.

James Piper: But I would be willing to bet that in the past, we did burn it off.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, easy job.

James Piper: How so you've closed off your landfill. How long do you have to look after it?

Robbie Staniforth: Forever, surely.

James Piper: Well, I don't think so. Typically. I had a look at Suez's website here and they were saying that controls had to be in place for 50 years after the site stops receiving waste.

Robbie Staniforth: Okay.

James Piper: So again, I think your landfill is like 30 to 50 years and then you sort of want to look after it after it's closed for 50 years. Now you're probably going to be there anyway because you're taking the methane out and you're making money, hopefully out of that methane. You're creating electricity, you're putting it back to the grid. So you're going to be there anyway, investing in the site.

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James Piper: Yeah, but as you mentioned, you know, landfills can be turned into parks, golf courses, anything like that. And that encourages people to look after them. If you can turn it into a valuable space, it encourages people to look after it.

Robbie Staniforth: And presumably they're saying after 50 years the whole thing's quite stable and it's not as likely to be an environmental catastrophe as it would have been in the sort of early years, just after it's doing all of its major processes because it's still quite a young landfill with lots of going on and breaking down within it.

James Piper: So. Yeah, in the UK, the Public Health act of 1875 required householders to store rubbish and it made local authorities responsible for the removal and disposal of waste and that led to the development of the landfill. So that's 1875, we started talking about it. I'm not entirely sure when the first landfill opened, but we're probably coming up to that sort of 100 year mark where some landfills are now just past that point. They've done 50 years of activity and then 50 years of closure.

Robbie Staniforth: Okay, yeah. Oh, wow, fine. And that's formal landfills. Obviously. We've been sort of generally just burying waste for millennia, but I don't think we've got time to go into that.

James Piper: No, I think I wrote in my book, if I remember rightly, it was something like, the landfills date back to 3000 BC. You know, you can trace them back to the Egyptians, I think, but I haven't got my book in front of me and that is completely from memory. So apologies if that's wrong.

Robbie Staniforth: I'm looking forward to those discerning listeners fact checking this and saying, you're totally wrong, James. You don't remember your book.

James Piper: But that is true in many levels. That is true. Anyway, we can't talk about landfills without talking about James Howells, can we?

Robbie Staniforth: James Howells, Yeah.

James Piper: Do you know?

Robbie Staniforth: No.

James Piper: He's bitcoin man.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, bitcoin man. We talked about this before, haven't we?

James Piper: We did mention it before, I think back in your South Africa trip we mentioned it because I was saying, actually landfills in the UK are quite heavily regulated. You can just walk onto one and yeah, I think in your South Africa trip you were mentioning people were going through the landfill to look for valuable stuff. And there is nothing more valuable in a landfill. I think I can say this with certainty. There's than James Howe's computer.

Robbie Staniforth: Okay, do we know what it's worth?

James Piper: It is currently worth about £570 million.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, my gosh.

James Piper: Yes. So this is a man who had a computer with I think 8,000 Bitcoin on it. It ended up in landfill back in 2013 when Bitcoin wasn't worth very much. And he has got increasingly desperate to get this back as the value of bitcoin has risen. It ended up in a landfill in Newport City Council. And I had a little look at the court judgments on this because there's been quite a few court judgments. Apparently it's in cell 2 area 2 of Docks Way landfill site. And I think this is James's big frustration. If he's listening to this, he's gonna be like, yep, this is my big frustration. He knows exactly where it is.

Robbie Staniforth: He knows the bit he's got to get at.

James Piper: Yeah. Because he can date it. He can go, well, this is the date I threw it away. And that was the cell you were working on on that date.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, my gosh.

James Piper: Challenge. Here is. And this is what the court judgement says. Once you have given something to the landfill, it is no longer yours.

Robbie Staniforth: Okay. Legally, that's the definition. What the intention to discard it means it's not yours.

James Piper: Exactly. So there's like all these rules about landfills, waste. You give something to the council to put in a landfill, it is now theirs. Now, I don't want to get too detailed into their legal arguments, but it really was fascinating because what they were saying is, well, yeah, the council owns the hard drive, but James owns the bitcoin that's on the hard drive.

Robbie Staniforth: The data inside the hard drive.

James Piper: Yeah. They were saying, like, if you had Microsoft Office on a laptop, for example, when you threw that laptop away, are you now claiming ownership of Microsoft? You know, that was their.

Robbie Staniforth: Very.

James Piper: And the judge said, well, you still gave them the Hard drive. They own the hard drive. And so every judgement so far has been thrown out. As I said, James has got increasingly desperate and is quite keen to buy this landfill. Now this landfill is closing any day, I don't know when but they're going to cap it off this financial year so it should be happening any day now. And he really wants to buy it but he's not allowed because you're not allowed to buy a lot. You know that's just not going to happen.

Robbie Staniforth: Well like he's in buy the land. Buy. Yeah, buy the landfill, the whole site.

James Piper: Buy the landfill. Cuz he's like 570. I'll just buy the landfill, I'll get some investors together, we'll buy it, we'll dig it up and we'll get this, this out. Now of course there is a massive environmental issue with that as we now know. He digs that up, he's releasing methane, he's releasing all sorts of things into the atmosphere. So I think it's. Look, if he's listening, I'm sorry but I think it's probably a good thing

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James Piper: he can't get access to this computer.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh shame man.

James Piper: Environmentally. But it is a lot of money.

Robbie Staniforth: The world's greatest archaeologists or something on it. I don't know. Yeah.

James Piper: You think he should be allowed. He should get it.

Robbie Staniforth: I, I don't know. I think there must be some way of getting. It's interesting, isn't it? I suppose they would have to do it so carefully they might burn through 570 million quid trying to do it.

James Piper: It's a big sell as well. He doesn't know exactly where in the cell so you'd be digging up a lot. Anyway, just a nice way to end because we can think about should someone be allowed to dig through a landfill? Let us know in the comments what you think. Yes, I don't think it's a good idea. I don't want to release methane into the atmosphere and leachate into the watercourse which I think is quite risky if you decide to go down that. Anyway, just back to that YouTube video. I thought this was just a great way to end this section. I loved the top comment on the YouTube video which was all those times as a kid that my parents said my room looked like a dump. They were secretly compliments for my curiosity of engineering. So kids, if your parents are saying your room looks like a dump, tell them great, I'm doing a good job. Addition to corrections. I'm going to go quite carbon heavy on this one, I think we had lots of comments following carbon offsetting episode, which is really nice.

Robbie Staniforth: I've already embarrassed myself on carbon and methane. I don't think I'm going to join in. James.

James Piper: Do you do all your maths on, like, carbon and other emissions based on their chemical symbols? Are you there going, Hydrogen's twice as bad as oxygen when it's in water. All right. So yes, we had Sam on Discord talking about our episode 49, and Sam mentioned something that I actually hadn't seen, which is we talk about carbon offsetting. There is also the concept of carbon in setting. Have you heard of this before?

Robbie Staniforth: In setting? Inset is when I have to look after my daughter and she's supposed to be at school, isn't it?

James Piper: It's basically the same thing. It's looking after your supply chain.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, okay.

James Piper: The same as looking after your kid. So this is carbon offsetting, but you're doing it within your own supply. Ch. So an example that Sam gave which was really helpful is someone funding like a solar panel on one of their supplier's roof. So it's your own supply chain that you're making greener. So even though it's not your business, which would be like moving to net zero and not necessarily offsetting, it's not your own business, but you're trying to make your supply chain. So rather than just funding a forest out in the middle of nowhere that you can't validate, you do something within your own supply chain that you can check and see.

Robbie Staniforth: I like the sound of that. That's a bit closer to home, isn't it? And requires greater collaboration along a supply chain. Sounds good to me.

James Piper: I agree. I think it's very good. I think most of our issues with carbon offsetting stemmed from the unknown. The fact that you're doing something that you don't really know whether you're providing good or not.

Robbie Staniforth: Not sure how it's monitored.

James Piper: I think carbon inserting is really good.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah.

James Piper: I think this idea of funding things that you know and not just funding something from halfway around the world is probably a good thing. I also had a WhatsApp from Moritz, who I think lives in Germany. I think so. Thank you very much for this. He sent me a fascinating website, genuinely fascinating, called compensators.org I'd never heard of. So in Europe we have a system called ets, the Emission Trading Scheme, and this is coming into the UK in the next couple of years. And within this scheme, the European Commission sets a limit on greenhouse gases that can be emitted and companies receive emissions allowances.

Robbie Staniforth: Yep.

James Piper: It is a couple of years, isn't it? But it's coming into the uk. It's not. You haven't got it yet?

Robbie Staniforth: No, it's coming soon. Yeah.

James Piper: So with these allowances, some of them are given for free, some are bid on at auctions, and some are bought via secondary markets. So there's like three routes to be able to get an emissions allowance. But essentially your company is creating emissions and then it has to go and get the equivalent number of allowances. The idea is supply, demand. The fewer allowances there are, the more they cost and, you know, there's again, differing levels of quality, all those kind of things. The people behind compensators.org feel there are too many allowances available, which gives companies an easy pass.

Robbie Staniforth: Okay. So they're just giving them for free, saying you are allowed to emit this much.

James Piper: Well, and also just by having lots available, that supply, demand balance isn't quite right. So they're too cheap.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, okay.

James Piper: So what this website allows you to do is it allows members of the public to donate to buy an allowance. So they give compensators.org money and compensators.org who don't have carbon emissions in the same way that these big companies do, go and buy the allowance

00:35:00

James Piper: and destroy it, essentially.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, okay. So therefore, like readdressing the price or pushing it back up to it pushes.

James Piper: The price up, which makes companies more likely to be doing climate activity that actually is beneficial rather than just buying allowances.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, okay.

James Piper: They don't really destroy them. They sort of just hold them in an account. Because if you destroy them, there's a complicated reason why you wouldn't do that. But what it does do is it means that members of the public can go in, donate, buy a carbon allowance or several carbon allowances, and then they will hold on to them and make sure companies can't buy them in the future.

Robbie Staniforth: Wow, that's a complicated way of taking direct action on carbon, isn't it?

James Piper: But interesting, really interesting. And just to finish up this carbon bit, thank you to Matt as well, who text about carbon removal rather than offsetting. I think we'll save that for another trash talk because there is this whole other part, which is carbon removal, which we didn't really cover very much. We'd like to take a moment to thank our sponsor, Eco Surety, who are on a mission to rid the world of unnecessary packaging. They help brands navigate the tricky world of extended producer responsibility. But that is not all. They also collaborate on some incredible recycling projects and consumer awareness campaigns for those tough to recycle materials. If you're an organisation looking to make smarter packaging choices, check them out@ecosurity.com Robby, I've picked a review for you this week. I saw your face just as you. As you saw it.

Robbie Staniforth: Thanks so much. Why did you pick this one, James?

James Piper: I saw this come through an app and I thought, Robbie's gonna have fun reading that username.

Robbie Staniforth: So the review of the week comes in from ggsj, dnd, kmskdm, slmdd, or if they prefer.

James Piper: I'm so glad I picked this one.

Robbie Staniforth: That's as good as I can do. Anyway, they say, I presume this is five star, is it?

James Piper: Yeah. Oh yeah, love it.

Robbie Staniforth: They managed to keep the subject matter interesting even though it's about rubbish. A firm fave of mine and Bristol based too. Okay, might be a local review that one. So hopefully we'll get time to meet up at some point with.

James Piper: Yes, thank you so much. Ggs, jdnd, kms, kdms, LMDD for those kind words. We really appreciate it. You can follow us at Rubbish Podcast. You can email talking rubbishpodcastmail.com or you can WhatsApp us. Also, please join our discord. It's the easiest way to engage with me and Robbie and listeners of the show. The link to all those things is in our show notes, as is the link to our petition which is about banning the word compostable on dog poo bags which can't be composted. So if you have a go and sign it. Robbie and I are also up for the resource Hot 100, so I will include. I think this is the last week before it closes, so I will include our links in here.

Robbie Staniforth: Okay, last chance to vote for one or both of us preferably.

James Piper: Thank you so much. And last week, Robbie, I told you about a podcast called the how to Academy. I've continued to enjoy it, so I just wanted to mention it again in case people didn't tune in last week. So it's a podcast, basically, that's all about inviting the world's most inspiring leaders, activists, scholars and artists to share their ideas on transforming our lives and the world. They've had some amazing speakers on there, some amazing conservationists. I fully recommend it. So if you get a second and you finish talking rubbish, you think I don't know what to listen to next. Check out the how to Academy. Rubbish or not, Robbie, there is one product that has just taken over the uk. Is that Fair to say.

Robbie Staniforth: I mean, it is fair to say.

James Piper: Even you have seen it.

Robbie Staniforth: Even I have seen it. And I'm not big on my pop culture.

James Piper: I am, of course talking about the infamous red diamond strawberry and cream sandwich from M S. So this is a trend, I think, that's come out of Japan to have kind of sweet sandwiches and they use like a sweet bread and they've put in it a cream cheese creme fraiche filling with some red diamond strawberries. I got hold of one.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, did you? You've eaten?

James Piper: I got a two, actually, because I got one for Ellie as well. Delicious. Yeah, yeah, I thought it was great.

Robbie Staniforth: Was it dessert, though, or was it lunch?

James Piper: It was elevenses. I'm going to. Do people have elevensees? People know what that means?

Robbie Staniforth: No, no. Elevenses.

James Piper: Yeah. You have a cup of tea at 11. We

00:40:00

James Piper: shared it there. It was very nice. And I thought in this time of national engagement, when we're all excited about a sandwich, our rubbish or not has to be sandwich packs, okay?

Robbie Staniforth: The classic. Gosh, we're getting a reputation for sandwiches. We talk about them every week these days.

James Piper: Do we.

Robbie Staniforth: Talk about the meal deal?

James Piper: Oh, yeah, we are big on the meal deal.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah.

James Piper: Why didn't we use that as one of our landfill examples as layers? The club sandwich. We had lasagna, we had cake, we missed the club sandwich.

Robbie Staniforth: Club sandwich would have been a good one. Yeah.

James Piper: Sorry, everyone. Okay, Robbie, what do you reckon? Sandwich pack, rubbish or not?

Robbie Staniforth: I think it's now or not. I'm sure the recycle logo is on most sandwich packs these days. And definitely the last one I have I put into my cardboard recycling box. Well, actually, the bin at work.

James Piper: I agree. I recycle them in the cardboard recycling as well. I think a lot of sandwich pack manufacturers have worked really hard to get the OPRL logo that says Recycle. They've done that by reducing the amount of plastic. And we've talked about this before where you haven't got like a. Where it's a plastic liner but it's kind of not attached. It's peelable. You can have a certain percentage of plastic. I get confused. It's either 10 or 15%. It keeps changing because you've got RAM versus OPRL, but I think the RAM is 15% and OPRL are 10% of plastic that's allowed to line cardboard. And the sandwich guys have worked really hard to reduce the amount of plastic and to make it easier for the recycler or for us to separate the plastic out. I Definitely think they've improved over time. I mean, I find it quite easy to remove the plastic now.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, no, they're much easier. I definitely find the same.

James Piper: But you don't have to, you don't have to remove the plastic. If you want to be the best recycler, you want to help recyclers out, definitely take the extra time to remove it. It'll reduce contamination, it'll be better for them. If you're in a rush, you're on the go, you've bought a meal deal. Make sure it gets into a cardboard recycling bin. Don't worry too much about the plastic. I think the trouble with developing a cream sandwich is you're likely to get a bit more contamination, so.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, yeah, that's true. What, as in cream left on the inside of the packet or whatever the box?

James Piper: Yeah. What's the official talking rubbish advice? Like lick the cream?

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, I think that is the official advice. Eat all of your food up.

James Piper: Yeah, yeah.

Robbie Staniforth: Maybe use the last of the sandwich to mop up the cream off the side.

James Piper: Oh, nice. That's better. What about that's better than lick the plastic, which I just don't think should be our advice. Foreign rubbish news. So back in episode 49, we discussed Ozempic pens and there was such an interesting news report this week. Thank you so much for to Roger over on LinkedIn for tagging us in this. It was a report in Packaging Europe and it was this statistic that a household with one user of weight loss drugs will spend 6 to 9% less on groceries.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, of course, yeah. Suppresses your appetite.

James Piper: Suppresses your appetite and you just don't buy as much and it is 6 to 9% down.

Robbie Staniforth: Wow. Okay. That's a h*** of a saving on your grocery bill.

James Piper: Saving on grocery bill. Also less packaging, you know, and so we should look into this. What's the data going to do as more and more users of Ozempic? And this is a quite an interesting kind of balance, isn't it, of you're introducing these pens which I think are quite difficult to recycle. Possible, but difficult. But you're creating a lot less packaging somewhere else. And so the balance is really fascinating. We should do more on this, I think properly. But I just wanted to talk about this news story because it was live. So experts are forecasting a 60 to $90 billion decline in food shop spending among the U.S. population by 2031.

Robbie Staniforth: Okay. Wow. Because it's going to be so popular to control your weight, manage your weight or whatever that Food shopping won't be as high.

James Piper: Yeah, I think so. And I, I mean I, I don't know what this is going to do to our packaging. I found like an article about Nestle had launched a range called Vital Pursuit, which are meals designed for people on weight loss medication. So this is what's starting to happen now. Brands are going, okay, people don't want a massive ready meal, they want a small ready meal, you know, which is a smaller portion but potentially has quite similar packaging. So you end up with this kind of like, are we going to end up with brands going, we're going to lose market share unless we start introducing portion controlled meals. So we'll just introduce portion control meals. But we'll still make them look appealing on the shelves. We'll still make them look like you're getting a lot.

Robbie Staniforth: So the ratio of product to packaging worsens, kind of thing. You get similar amount of packaging

00:45:00

Robbie Staniforth: but much less product in it, whether that be food or whatever. Yeah.

James Piper: Now I'm actually glad we get to talk about Oz Epic pens again because I was going to put this in corrections but then I got quite carbon focused. I put a clip about this on our socials and we actually had a listener write in who said they were using Ozempic and they said that they were actually given a sharp spin by the company every time.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, okay.

James Piper: They ordered by their pharmacy. So whenever they ordered one they were given the new needles. They were also given a sharpspin. So I said you may need to go and buy one. The day she sent that message, she then sent me a follow up in the afternoon going, just had my new delivery and it didn't come with a sharp spin. So I think this is a bit hit and miss. But yeah, we did get quite a lot of comments on those videos saying, look, the suppliers will supply a sharp spin. You don't need to go and buy one. So that's great. You can, you can tell, you know, we're not experts in this field at all. So really?

Robbie Staniforth: And are they saying they send that sharps bin back to the supplier? No, they're just saying it's somewhere safe.

James Piper: No, they just get provided one and then you've got to arrange the collection. So as we said in that episode, definitely listen back to it. You can send that off with your counsel or potentially take it back to a GP or pharmacy, but you need to find out where to take that back to.

Robbie Staniforth: Okay.

James Piper: We did get lots of comments on those videos. I had a weird week on social media because I put up Our Sainsbury's receipt video. You know, we don't want a receipt. Why is Sainsbury's making me take a receipt? Andaro's epic video. Oh, my goodness. We ended up with a lot of comments. Now, be polite because we've got kids who listen to this podcast, sort of talked about how pointless we were. Robbie. And how how it must be a slow news day if all you're worried about is a receipt, which is like completely fair. And I'm sure none of these people are listening, but if they are listening, they're gonna be astonished when they discover we did three episodes of Paper Cups. This is a niche podcast. We accept that. And that means our social media clips are probably gonna be quite niche.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, great. But James, have you heard of the black soldier fly?

James Piper: I have not, no.

Robbie Staniforth: Well, my news this week actually is one of those news articles you get that's sort of like an industry press release and it gets changed and sort of sold as if it's an article. And I wouldn't normally choose that kind of thing, I would choose actual news. But it was really interesting. This one got me hooked up. It's not quite clickbait and there's a joke in there somewhere because it's about maggots and larvae. And it's basically this organisation, my group, who are using the black soldier fly to bio convert organic waste and recycle, basically using these bugs. So the article itself was actually talking about a joint venture that meant that my group are now rearing the larvae themselves rather than getting it from a supplier, which is good news in and of itself that they're joining up the supply chain and using it. But then the news to me was really that you've got these black soldier flies that metabolise material into a substance used for organic fertiliser and for nutrient rich protein. And this was the bit that got me hooked in because I was thinking, oh, my God, this stuff isn't going into our protein bars and protein shakes. But fear not, from the article, it's actually used to replace conventional protein sources that are in animal feeds. So really this is stuff that will go to pigs, chickens, fish, potentially maybe even pets, but isn't actually, as far as I could see, for human consumption. So great to hear about biological recycling improvements and not just the kind of mechanical and chemical ones that we often talk about on this podcast. So well done to my group for breeding these black soldier flies. Sounds like a very good process.

James Piper: Rubbish question. The question today came from Eats runs on Discord. They were asking, could you take tape to a soft plastic recycling bin or a flexible plastic recycling bin, as I like to call it. They'd ripped off a few handfuls of tape from a cardboard box. I mean, I've put a picture in there, Robbie, for you. There's quite a lot of tape off that cardboard.

Robbie Staniforth: There is a lot of tape, yeah. And it does look like it doesn't have that much card on it from this picture I'm looking at. It is solely tape, really. There isn't loads of fibres on it, as far as I can see.

James Piper: Yeah. So what do we reckon? Can you take that to a soft, flexible plastic recycling bin?

Robbie Staniforth: I just don't think so. No. It sounds like it would be an absolute mess when reprocessed, with everything else sticky

00:50:00

Robbie Staniforth: and all the rest of it.

James Piper: Yeah. Adhesive is a big problem. So when we talk about, like, cardboard with labels on or something like that, that's all okay. Because there's a tiny bit of adhesive in the grand scheme of that cardboard box. I mean, when you get this much tape on a box, because there is a lot of tape here, it is definitely helpful to remove it. It is definitely helpful to take it off and put it in your general bin. But I don't think it should be going back to the soft or flexible plastic bins because that adhesive is going to contaminate that recycling. They don't want it. It makes it much harder to recycle the plastic.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah. And I know we've talked about with cardboard previously in one of our rubbish questions, that if there's a bit of tape, it's not a problem. It can go with the cardboard, but if there's loads, then take it off the card because you really want the card to go off and get recycled in the best way possible. But this just looks like a sticky mess to me.

James Piper: Yeah. And either way, it's likely to get sent off to incineration. If you send it to a cardboard recycler, they will wash it off and send it off for incineration. If you put it in your general waste bin, it'll get sent off for incineration. So that's why taking it off is the best thing to do, because you're cutting out the middle company, essentially, and you're saying, well, look, I can take that off and I can get that incinerated without it having to go through a wash process. I wanted to check this. So seeing as Roger Biff had tagged us in the Ozempic pen story, perfect opportunity for Me to reach out and check this with him and to see if there were any developments. And he mentioned paper tape, which we are increasingly seeing. Right. I occasionally see it from Amazon, you know, where they're using a paper tape rather than plastic.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah.

James Piper: He did say some of these are okay. They can sometimes take the fibre content from it. Some of them aren't. The adhesive is so strong or they're so much adhesive that you can't get the fibre content. But in this instance, it's probably best to leave paper tape on the box because at least in some instances they can recycle that. That paper, that fibre.

Robbie Staniforth: Okay. And potentially for any big users of cardboard box packaging, are we saying move towards paper tape? Sounds like a better option to me.

James Piper: So my approach, if I'm using plastic tape, I will typically try and take it off the box if I've got time. And. And normally I do. So I will take off the tape off if it's plastic, but if it's paper, I will tend to leave it on the box. Residual rubbish. So this is the section where we talk about something that has happened to us this week that has made us laugh or cry. I have something that I spotted on LinkedIn. It's not really a laugh or cry, it's definitely a smile. So I'm building various emotions that could come under residual rubbish. This was shared by Rob from Behaviour Change, who did some incredible work. I really enjoyed this. Thank you, Rob. I don't think it's scalable, but I love it. So confusion affects recycling, as we know and Wish Cycling is a very real thing. We'll do some episodes on Wish Cycling in the future. This idea that you put something in a bin and go, gosh, I hope that gets recycled, knowing it probably can't be.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah.

James Piper: And less than 1 in 10 of us. So this was some research from Rap that less than 1 in 10 of us feel very confident about what can or can't be recycled. That's why you should listen to this podcast. Behaviour Change developed the not sure box, which I. I just love. Ah, yes. So they rolled it out in Dorset Council over three collection weeks and households had a recycling bin and a general bin and they also had the not sure box. So if they got something that they weren't about, then they put it in the not sure box. The council would then go around, this is why it's not scalable. The council then went round looking in the not sure box and writing out feedback for that resident. So they learned whether things in the not sure box were recyclable or not.

Robbie Staniforth: Sounds like a great tailored service, though. If only it was scalable.

James Piper: I think you and I could do this, Robbie. We could just walk around Bristol looking in people's not sure box. That'd be fun. What was interesting here is contamination reduced by 45% across the area. Now, from what I can see, this was six weeks after the trial. So this isn't contamination reduced because we had the North Shore box. This is actually people learnt from those notes that the council left and it reduced contamination by 45%.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah. And amazingly, like, they can probably turn these learnings of the most common items into some comms that they can blanket put out to everybody so they don't have to look through everyone's not sure box.

James Piper: Yeah. So I know councils can't afford to do this, but I just. And it's certainly not the best use of time, but I thought it was a very cool report. I just wanted to share that.

Robbie Staniforth: So my residual rubbish this week is something that raised an eyebrow. Is that emoji allowed for this?

James Piper: Yeah, yeah. Oh, let's just call it the. Yeah, residual rubbish. The section with something that has happened to us that's made us feel like an emoji.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah. And this

00:55:00

Robbie Staniforth: was something that was circulating on various social media platforms and it originated from the Sun. I originally had it in Rubbish News, but I moved it because, James, you did some investigative journalism on this and I'll come to you in a second on it. But the headline was 55,000 tennis balls used during Wimbledon are being upcycled into tiny homes for harvest mice. So it's basically a picture that leads with the story with a small hole cut into a tennis ball and a little cute harvest mouse inside it, allowing them to get in and out. And it said that these were being placed in tall grass and mounted on poles so that the 55,000 tennis balls used every year in Wimbledon could then be reused or repurposed. But what did you find out, James?

James Piper: Just. It sounded awful to me. I hadn't seen this and so I looked at the article you'd sent and I thought, this can't be right. You're putting a. What was that? A harvest mouse that is. That is prey to a predator and you're giving them a home that's neon. Like what you're making them seen by every predator. It just felt so stupid on so many levels. Like the fact that they're going to be eating that tennis ball and getting some nice contamination in them because they tend to nibble on their homes. The fact that a predator is going to be able to spot them because they're in a neon tennis ball. There were so many reasons why this was a stupid idea and so I thought, this can't be accurate. Looked at the sun article and when you actually delve into it, you realise this is a story from 20 years ago that for some reason the sun are sharing as if it was current. There is no way organisations are doing this in 2025.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah. And then I reread it after you find the acts, I thought, oh, this is good news that people aren't actually, you know, this isn't really happening anymore. And actually the sun very cleverly had. People are just realising that. And so that's how they got around this. It's not actually happening at the moment. And obviously microplastics from the insides of tennis balls and stuff. There's all sorts of reasons why when these break down, it's not a good thing. So I quickly had look off the back of this and someone had written into the BBC to say how many tennis balls are used each year. And at the end of the article it said that some of the old balls are subsequently sold to the public, with money raised going to Wimbledon Foundation. Others may often be donated to the Lawn Tennis association for distribution to tennis clubs. So basically not good enough for the pros, but good enough for lots of amateur tennis players. So these balls are actually being reused and just finally we shouted them out before. But Circular Ball is an organisation who collects up tennis balls. Look them up if you do get through a lot of tennis balls to try and recycle them back into new tennis balls.

James Piper: As always, reuse over recycling. Thank you all so much for listening. Thank you for the reviews and engagement. As always. We love getting to talk to you guys each week and talk absolute rubbish. Please remember to leave us a review on particularly Apple or Spotify because that helps us to grow. Join our Discord. Follow us on social media at Rubbish Podcasts. You can email talkingrubbishpodcastmail.com or you can WhatsApp us and everything we have discussed today can be found on our link tree. The details for all of those things can be found in the show notes for the episode. See you next bin day.

Robbie Staniforth: Bye bye.

00:58:42