66. Who should win the Earthshot prize?

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Hello, welcome to Talking Rubbish, a weekly podcast delving deep into the world of recycling and discussing the truth behind snappy headlines and unsided stories. In this episode, we will discuss who should win the Earthshop Prize. Are water pistols rubbish or not? And I have a question about the definition of pre-consumer recycling. I'm James Piper, author of the rubbish book, and I'm joined by Robbie Stanford, my far from rubbish friend. Good morning, Robbie. Hey James. Robbie, I've spent the last couple of days at London Packaging Week. How was it? Yeah, it was really good. And I met lots of fans of the show. The funniest thing that happened was we have so there's an account on Instagram. I'm not going to name them because I think anonymity might be important to this person. That's part of the story, really. And so they've got an account on Instagram where they've never posted a picture with their face. They just post packaging. They just like packaging. Okay. And they've been following us for a while, and we, you know, we've communicated a few times. I think could questions come up on the show from them, and they just messaged me saying, on my way to see you at London Packaging Week, I was watching this talk, and behind me, someone just came up and said, I'm a bib influencer. And I'm also this packaging Instagram account. Oh, this is amazing. I mean, for me, it was a bigger twist than the sixth cents. It was like this guy who's very senior in his company also has this packaging Instagram account, and I had no idea it was the same person. And then he went, and I'm this person on Discord. And I was like, whoa, you've got so many aliases. This is like I don't know if anyone's read the Ink Black Heart, you know, the Robert Galbraith for the J.K. Rowling book. Um, but the whole point of that book is people have like an online alias and a real world, and the whole book, you're joining people together. I felt like a detective. I was joining everyone up. I bet you were absolutely loving that right up your alley. It happened as well on the way home because I was on the train and someone from Bristol Waste got on and started chatting to me. And she said, Oh, I'm this person on the Discord. So I said, Well, everyone's maybe I need a hidden identity. I should I could just put out things like that was a rubbish episode. Just watch as people like come to my defence. Violin, nice trash walk. So today I wanted to discuss the Earthshop prize, and this is because the Earthshop ceremony will be happening next week as this episode goes out. I think it's on the 5th of November, and this episode will go out at the end of October. So thought it was a good opportunity just to have a little look at all the finalists and get Robbie to guess who's going to win. And then next week we'll find out if he got it right or not.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

You up for that, Robbie? I don't like my chances here. It's a pretty prestigious prize, isn't it? It's been around for a few years now, and it's like got so much press around it. It really is in the mainstream media. I uh I'm impressed that um Prince William's lent in and it's really got high profile.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

I guess we'll cover what we think about the actual prize towards the end of this trash talk because I think there's pros and cons to it. But definitely it's been around, it was announced actually in 2019, so announced six years ago by Prince William. Uh it was formally launched in 2020 with David Attenborough in October of 2020, and then the first prize was given in 2021. It's named actually after Moonshot. So the project to put a man on the moon in the 1960s was called Moonshot, and they were like, oh well, we'll call this Earthshot because we're trying to protect the Earth.

SPEAKER_00 3:42

Am I the only one who has never made that link before? That's absolutely brand new information to me.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

And I think we could say that was some truth that that's brand new information because my notes didn't sink, and you have literally only just seen my notes in the last 12 seconds. So it probably is brand new information for you. And so, as I said, the first awards were in 2021 and it was planned to be run up to 2030. And there are five categories. They actually call them earth shots. There are five earth shots. So we think of it as one earth shot prize, but it's actually five. You know, like the Nobel Prize has lots of categories, lots of Nobel Prizes you can win. This has lots of earth shots. They have three people go to the final in each category. So that's how it works: 15 finalists, five earth shots, and they pick a winner in each one. So if you've got to this point and you're one of the 15, you actually have a one in three chance of winning. You're up against two people. The five earth shots are protect and restore nature, clean our air, revive our oceans, build a waste-free world, and fix our climate. And if you win your earth shot, if you win your category, you win a million pounds to develop your business. You also win a year's worth of support from the earthshot team to help grow your business.

SPEAKER_00 4:56

Ah, I didn't realize that. So that's like promotions and trying to understand the market that you're going to be dealing with, because lots of these things aren't just about not-for-profit basis or whatever, they're actual commercial businesses that are trying to solve these issues.

SPEAKER_01 5:11

And on this podcast, we interviewed Pierre, who's one of the co-founders of NotPlot, and that was back in episode 20, and they won in 2022. If you're interested in which Earthshot they won, they won Build a Waste Free World. Just a side note on this, because Notplur have come up in my feed recently, Ben, their marketing manager, shared something quite interesting. I don't know if you saw this, but there was this big uptick a couple of weeks ago where people were sharing AI news, and I've noticed it more and more on Facebook. They take an established company and they sort of pretend it's really innovative and they'll make an AI post about it, and everyone shares it because they've sort of forgotten this company exists. So in Not Plus case, they make those little bubbles of water or Lucas Aids called ooh, yeah, exactly. And so if you're doing a marathon or something, you can grab one, you can eat it, it releases the drink, and you're eating the packaging. That's the thing we discuss with uh Pierre. And people have generated AI images of like people running marathons getting given these massive bubbles, you know, like a ball pit-size bubble. It's like an apple you have to bite into. And these were going so viral. Everyone was everyone was going, Oh wow, I've never heard of this company. This is amazing. And Ben, the marketing manager from Notblah, was sharing that they'd had a 13% increase in search appearances, they had 234% increase in new followers and an increase of page visits of 242% because of these AI images. And he was entering into this debate of is this okay? Like fake news was shared, and it was fake news because they were saying it was developed in Sweden, and it was all just a bit of a lie. The AI images are awful, but because they're going viral, we're getting lots of exposure. And he was debating the ethics of that, as you say, which is which is interesting. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 6:59

Hopefully, this Earthshot support team can help uh these companies navigate tricky things like that.

SPEAKER_01 7:06

So the awards are very global, actually, despite the fact that the prize money is in pounds, and obviously it's got very British founders. Um, it is global. Not Plur are actually the only winner from the UK so far. However, that could all change this year, as we will discuss very shortly. The 2025 ceremony is being held, as I said, on the 5th of November in the Museum of Tomorrow in Rio de Janeiro. So, how does the prize work? They search, so there's a team of official nominators who look out for innovative solutions around the world. In 2024, I think they shortlisted essentially 2,400 initiatives. They went around the world and said there's 2,400 things that are worth looking at for the Earth Shop.

SPEAKER_00 7:47

Wow, they cast the net pretty wide, don't they? Geez, 2,400. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 7:52

They whittle that down to 150, and then presumably another committee gets involved and they get that down to the top 15, and they then have a prize council who select the winners. So it's all very internal. And as I said, the winners enter a fellowship program and get support for a year alongside the £1 million. So, Robbie, I want to go through the five earth shots, sort of summarising what they're all about, but also I would like you to pick a winner in each category and then can't wait to find out if you're right. There's one I'm not going to allow you to pick, but we'll come on to that in a second. So the first one is protect and restoring nature. So this is all about protecting areas of high biodiversity, so forests, wetlands, peatlands, those sort of things, and restoring damaged ecosystems. Uh that it's got kind of a subcategory as well around feeding people while protecting nature. So if you could come up with innovative solutions to produce food while not destroying nature. When I look at the final list for this category, it made me think back to our carbon offsetting episode where so much of the focus was on like planting trees or protecting land. It's sort of when you go back over the final list, it's all that sort of thing. And I would say the three entries for this year definitely are. What's the best way of doing this? Shall I just read the three with a little description of what they're about and then pause to let you decide who you think the winner's gonna be?

SPEAKER_00 9:04

Yeah, let's go that way. And I'll tell you why I like whichever one I choose. I'm this we're starting with a category that, I'll be honest, is not my speciality here.

SPEAKER_01 9:15

So uh just go with your gut feel. Which name do you like? What's the just say feel your way around it? So, first, in no particular order, because I have no idea who's gonna win. Uh, in this category, we've got Re Green, who are from Brazil, and they're using AI drones and satellites to work out the best place to plant in the Atlantic forest, which is in South America, to have maximum impact. So they then go on to create restoration plans. So rather than just going, it looks like we need some trees here, they're actually mapping that out and saying, actually, if you planted the trees here, you would have the best chance of those trees growing well and surviving. The second final listen in this category is tenure facility in Sweden. And they help indigenous communities to secure land rights. So indigenous communities, I mean, they manage over half of the world's land, which I just find astonishing, but so often that ownership is not recognised. And these guys have got together to say, actually, we can provide legal and financial support to help indigenous communities to take back ownership of the land that they are already managing and should really own if people were going to recognise that. And the third one in this category is Tropical Forest Forever Facility, based in Brazil, and they are looking to create a $125 billion fund. I think they already have a billion from Brazil. Little side note here, I know what you might be thinking at this point. Why do they need to win a million pounds? That's exactly what I'm thinking. Let's park that one. That's going to come in at the end. But assuming they did need the million pounds, they are looking to create a $125 billion fund. And as I say, I think they've already got a billion from Brazil to pay countries to safeguard tropical forests. So the idea is here is to make planting and maintaining a forest more valuable than cutting it down. And they would they will do that by creating a fund and looking to protect a billion hectares by 2030. So, Robbie, do you want to go with the AI drone satellite, helping indigenous communities or looking to build a fund to protect forests?

SPEAKER_00 11:16

I think I'm going to go with the tenure facility in Sweden, the helping indigenous communities. I think going back to traditional ways of managing land, I'm all for that. As soon as one of them said AI drones, I sort of immediately uh switched off, unfortunately. That doesn't tickle my fancy. To be fair, they all sound like very worthy causes. Gosh, I I'm not envious of the people who have to try pick a winner, but I'm going to go for the indigenous communities, the tenure facility.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

Uh clean our air. So number two, this is about engaging citizens in data collections and clean air policies, preventing the burning of fields, forests, and wastes, and transitioning to clean transportation. This one, and I I don't think this is always the case because I I went back over the old final list, but they in this particular year, all three of them are areas, they're cities or states or parts of a country. Um I don't think that's always the case, but in this particular example they are. So the first one is the city of Bogota in Colombia. They've reduced air pollution by 24% since 2018 by introducing cleaner transport, greening up the city with plants, and design of spaces. The second one here is the city of Guangzhou, based in China. And again, they have focused on mobility, so they've been electrifying buses and taxis, and that has cut particulate matter by around 40% for over 24 million people. And in eight years, they have reduced carbon emissions by 1 million tonnes. And the final one in this category is the state of Gujarat in India, and they also focused on emissions, they pioneered a particulate emissions trading scheme. So this is sort of similar to the carbon trading scheme that we discussed again in episode 49. They capped emissions that companies could produce, and if companies came in under, they could financially trade them with other businesses, and that incentivised better emissions. That led to particulate emissions cutting by about 20 to 30 percent in Surat. So those are your three, Robbie. All three all places that have basically focused on particulate matter and carbon emissions and air pollution.

SPEAKER_00 13:18

I think I'm gonna go for the state of Gujarat because I quite like the idea of trying to cap these emissions for companies and then making them pay and financially incentivize them around these better emissions. I don't know, you know, with our carbon trading schemes we've talked about before, they don't always work, but I trust the vetting process of the EarthShop prize. So it sounds like they've found one that actually makes a difference. So yeah, gonna go with that one in India. Perfect, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 13:47

The third category is Revive Our Oceans, which is all about protecting and restoring coastal ecosystems, replenishing fish populations, and reducing demand for fish meal. There is a real mix in this one. And this is the one you unfortunately don't get to pick in because you and I have to support one of these entries, no question. Oh, okay. So the first one here is bonds for ocean conservation in the USA. And this is actually quite interesting. This came up a couple of times. It's called debt for nature swaps. What this basically is is finding countries or areas that have very difficult debt agreements, so high interest rates or lots of, you know, difficult repayment measures. And they come in and they make those debt agreements better. So they refinance the loans basically. And the money that's saved from the refinancing is then put into helping the planet, and in this instance, it's uh ocean conservation. So as an example, they talked about this uh story in the Galapagos Islands, they did a debt conversion agreement, which was supported by a load of partners. It saved Ecuador over $1 billion, which channelled $450 million directly into marine conservation. So it's basically countries with more money coming in and saying we can ease your burden of loan or debt, and the money that you save, can you put it back into the ocean? So that's bonds for ocean conservation. I really like this one. They're not going to be the one we pick to win those. I see treaty in the Netherlands. So this is a treaty to protect biodiversity in international waters. So because international waters aren't really owned by anyone, it's quite complicated getting those protected. So this is a treaty of 145 countries coming together and agreeing to protect the oceans comes into force in January 2026. Again, very good, but one we are not supporting because we are supporting Matter, who are based in Bristol in the UK. What? Oh wow. Not just a UK entry, but a Bristol one. Wow. A Bristol finalist based over in St. Philip. So well done, Matter. They are the sole UK entry this year. They can join Knotplower as the second UK winner if they win. And what they do is they provide self-cleaning filters that capture microplastics from homes and factories. And I guess that the interesting thing about what they do is they do retrofitting, so you can just chuck it on the top of your existing washing machine. And the idea is that microplastics will shed and other particles will shed off your clothes, and it the water goes through this filter first, which captures all of the microplastics. If I have to be negative about this entry, because I always feel like we should have some balance rather than just completely supporting the Bristol entry. They say on their website they're self-cleaning. It doesn't really exist. Nothing can be self-cleaning when it's capturing microparticles, because where are those microparticles going to go? So on one part of their website it says self-cleaning, which I believe in that you don't have to replace cartridges. But on another part of their website it says easy emptying every six weeks. So it's not literally self-cleaning. You still have to empty it. And the challenge with that is I often speak to people who go, and you say, What do you do with your microplastics filter? And they say, Oh, I just, you know, wash it out in the sink. Like that's a very expensive middle person there. You've put a filter in.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

No. So what you have to like sort of scrape it out or like dry brush it. I think you just tip it into the bin.

SPEAKER_01 17:07

Okay. But again, you've now put microplastics into the bin. So there's a whole another trash talk we can do on filters and microplastics and all this stuff. We'll do that another day. I think it's just an observation that sometimes these filters they're they're really good in terms of concentrating microparticles, making sure we don't get into the waterways. So perfect for the revive our oceans category, but I'm not sure I'd be shortlisting them in the builder waste free world category because all they're doing is moving the microparticles from my washing machine to my bin. So as I say, you don't get to pick. We are you and I automatically, by default, have to support the Bristol contingent. I also sort of feel the other two don't need the money, but I'm going to come on to that. Absolutely. Come on, Prince Will. Give it to Bristol. Fourth category is Build a Waste Free World. And this is about reducing food loss from farm to fork, phasing out single-use and non-recycled plastics, high value circularity in fashion and electronics. So this is what the Build a Waste Free World is focusing on. And there were a wide variety of projects here. Again, not really surprising considering the breadth of the title. So the three options you have here, Robbie, are AT Renew in China, which is an AI-powered system that sorts, tests, quality controls, grades, and prices up to 100,000 electronic devices daily. And they've so far processed 150 million electronics, basically making second-hand electronics more desirable by processing them and getting them onto market as quickly as they can. Lagos Fashion Week in Nigeria, which is a sustainable fashion show, I guess. But they focus on sustainable fashion. They train up designers and revive local craftsmanship. So they had a real focus on sustainability during their fashion week. And Key Quarter Tower, which is a very large building in Australia. And what they wanted to do here was show that you could upcycle and retrofit an existing building instead of demolishing it. So they retained 65% of the structure and 98% of the core, which avoided 12,000 tonnes of embodied carbon. So out of those three, which would you like?

SPEAKER_00 19:06

Yeah, see, demolition really doesn't get much of a look in and construction. So I'm tempted by that one, but I've got to go with Lagos Fashion Week. I'd love to go see the sustainable design and all of the local designers who are upcycling things, I'm sure, for sustainable fashion purposes. Fast fashion often doesn't get a look in. So yeah, I'm gonna go with Lagos Fashion Week.

SPEAKER_01 19:28

I would have put that as my last place. So I'm this is where we're gonna disagree, I think. I think I would have given it to AT Renew with their um because second-hand electricals are such a big issue. But yeah, no, that's very cool. They're all big issues, by the way. Look, I've got to go with my co-host. So finally, the fifth category is fix our climate. This is about creating an equitable clean energy future, addressing non-CO2 greenhouse gas emissions, and decarbonising hard-to-abate sectors. First finalist here is Barbados. The country. I don't know how they're gonna share the money. The entire country. The entire country's been shortlisted. And this is for the Bridgetown initiative, which is very similar to that bonds for ocean climate one, so easing debt burdens. Sure. And that is all about having debt pause clauses getting added to loans from governments and global banks, which allows countries that have been affected by natural disasters to delay repayments until they've recovered a bit more. And then the debt savings can then be put into climate initiatives. So very, very similar to that ocean one, just with a bit of a wider focus in terms of where the money can go. Second one is form energy, based in the USA. They have developed iron air batteries. So basically, they're batteries that are made with iron, water, and air, and they can store electricity for up to a hundred hours at a fraction of the cost of lithium-based batteries. So just using a different metal, that's what they've developed. And that obviously addressed the variability in terms of pricing of renewables so makes it more available to more people. And then finally, we have Friendship, which is in Bangladesh, which helps vulnerable communities across Bangladesh not only to prepare for natural disasters, but also supporting health, education, livelihoods, and access to public services. They have also, it's all separate, but I think it's together. They've also been restoring over 60 kilometers of mangrove forests to shield villagers from the worst impacts of cyclones.

SPEAKER_00 21:18

So those are your three under Fix Our Climate. I I reckon I'm gonna go for that last one, friendship, uh in Bangladesh. I've got a friend who's been doing nature documentaries in mangrove forests, and they've been talking about how they can actually shield these impacts and absorb uh tsunamis, etc., in the mangrove and support those local communities when disasters strike.

SPEAKER_01 21:40

So, yeah, I'm gonna go with that one. Perfect. Thank you, Robbie. So we've got your finalists. We've got Friendship from Bangladesh for Fix Our Climate. We've got the Lagos Fashion Week for Build a Waste Free World. You and I both support Matter, based in Bristol, UK. Whoop whoop. And uh revive our oceans, clean our air. You went for the state of Gujarat and for protect and restore our nature. You went with the ten-year facility based in Sweden. Lovely. So let's come on to the actual ceremony itself. It does try to reduce carbon. It uses recycled materials. It asks guests to wear pre-loved clothing and it has performances and performeurs that are powered by cycling. So the stat I found was that the ceremony in 2021 used less than five tons of carbon, which is about 98% less than a ceremony of this size would be expected to use. I'm pretty sure that tonnage does not include flights. Because I think my frustration is you're just flying a load of celebrities into a place where they don't live to have a celebration on carbon.

SPEAKER_00 22:40

Yeah, it's always tricky, these global events. You can say similar about sort of Davos and these other kind of yeah, environmental events.

SPEAKER_01 22:48

And I think this kind of feeling I've got that I'm sure that we talked about at the beginning, and I'm sure lots of our listeners have is it just feels like some of these projects don't need the money. A lot of them are one and a half billion dollar funds, or you know, it's just like, what are they gonna do with a million pounds? And a lot of it feels like the work's already been done, and actually this prize is recognition. And I guess when I came into this doing my research, I thought the Earthshop prize was more like a dragon's den thing. I've got an idea and I want to take it forward. But the criteria means actually your idea has to pretty much already been done. You occasionally get people like Knoppla, where it's like, actually, you're helping us grow and develop, and matter would come into that example. But very often the finalist is a big project that's already been done that is being celebrated. I guess I I was speaking of Dragon's Den, I was thinking it's a bit like Dragon's Den, where some people go on and you just think, you don't need this money. You are here because you want to be on telly. And it is a bit like that, get the recognition rather than the money. And so it's not quite as innovation-led as I kind of thought it was, just from looking at from the outside before I did the research.

SPEAKER_00 23:55

Yeah, I think that's definitely the case. The reality is that Knoppler did get a massive leg up, didn't they, from winning the Earthshop prize, got great exposure. So I've now got my fingers crossed that matter in Bristol are going to be a great target for them to choose because it will make a massive difference rather than sort of recognition of existing schemes that I don't think necessarily will go further faster as a consequence of the prize.

SPEAKER_01 24:25

Yeah, and I think there's so many other seaweed-based packaging companies who, if I had them on this call, I suspect would be saying we don't really like the Earthshop price. Because what has happened is Knopla have had that leg up and that find funding, and they are doing an amazing job with it. All the other guys are saying, well, we're just as good or we're doing the same thing, but we haven't got that recognition. And so there are lots of water filter companies for washing machines, and matter might get recognized above them because they've been shortlisted for this price. So I think there is an argument to say recognition is probably not a bad thing. Well, it's certainly not a bad thing for that company. Maybe it's a bad thing for the industry if we're focusing on just one company rather than the solution. So that that is a question that we would need to ask. But I think one thing that does happen with the Earth Shop Prize is it does inspire people. It raises some really interesting problems that are worth us talking about and thinking about. And certainly we've just shortlisted today, but it would be nice for us to just reflect on some of these issues in future trash talks. Then I can see real value in it that you're exposing some of these issues and people are talking about it, and some of these celebs who fly in might learn something while they're while they're at the prize ceremony. So what what I think we don't want is people to go, oh, Prince William sorted this for me because he's launched his prize. Now I don't need to try. You know, we need to make sure that everyone understands they still have to do their bit as well. And these are just a showcase of some examples of things that might help us. Additions and corrections. Robbie, we have reached the conclusion of the three-episode arc that is the Morrison sun-dried tomato paste. So let's remind listeners of this three-episode arc. So John sent me a WhatsApp saying I've been into Morrison's. There's a glass jar, the Morrison Sun-Dried Tomato Paste, that has a do not recycle label. We talked about it in episode 60, which was Gareth's episode, which went out on the 18th of September. On the 22nd of September, so just four days later, I put a clip of that out on our social media, and Natasha, the packaging manager at Morrison's, commented to say, let's get this fixed. And on the 26th of September at 4.25, I received a very exciting email showing that the artwork had been updated. And Natasha had actually found a second product with the same error. So we've doubled the impact. It's not just the Morrison Sun-Dried Tomato paste, there is a second product that has also been fixed. The second unnamed product. Exactly. That means it took eight days from us talking about it on the podcast to Morrison's changing their printing. And I am so impressed with that. And I think, yeah, I just want Morrisons to know they've done a really good job, and I'm really, really pleased that we've made a difference. And to all the influencers out there, keep your eyes peeled. Let's get a few more of these corrected. So I know it has felt like a long time since we started this discussion because it's been a few episodes, but for us, it was eight days from episode going out to printing change. So Morrisons get the talking rubbish, the first ever talking rubbish cheer. You ready, Robbie? Gollet. I've got to work on my transitions a bit better, haven't I? I've got to like fade it in and out. I can't just play a cheer. I just think we need a little thing for every time a company does something and you know fixes something that we've raised on the podcast. So, Oxford Services, if you also want a talking rubbish cheer, please fix your signage. And loads and loads and loads and loads of people responded to our toothpaste episode asking the same thing. Can I cut the end off my toothpaste tube to get the toothpaste out? And I think my answer to this is always going to be the same. We don't want you cutting up your recycling. I make a very small exception for greasy pizza boxes, but I do tend to tear the grease off rather than cutting them. But cutting packaging is a nightmare. Recyclers want our waste to look predictable and as much like the original packaging. And inevitably cutting anything leads to smaller pieces that can't be recycled. So tubes do not need to be completely empty. They need to be as empty as possible. But you, if you're just squeezing the toothpaste out at the end, that'll be fine. You don't need to cut it up. Same with tomato puree. Tubes, they do not need to be cut up.

SPEAKER_00 28:45

That tiny, tiny little bit left at the end, don't lose sleep over. Is that what we're saying? Squeeze as hard as you're able to, but then just flatten it back out, put it in your recycling.

SPEAKER_01 28:55

Exactly. And we did have a Discord message from Judith, who works for one of the biggest producers of toothpaste tubes. She gave us some interesting history on the development of the tube. So check that out on Discord if you want to know more. But one thing she said that did pique my interest was that we'd said on episode 62 to make sure the tube was flat. So, you know, don't roll it up. And she said, if it's the new plastic one that can be recycled, you can't roll it up. It will unfurl. So I didn't know this because I've never tried. I've never tried to roll up my toothpaste tube. But if you roll it up and it stays rolled up, it's actually a non-recyclable one because that's going to be the one that's got aluminium in it. And if it unfurls, it is recyclable. So it's the exact opposite of the scrunch test that you do for wrapping paper. Top test that. Very useful. And a correction. I just need to correct our comment on the American Airlines olive story. I went to post it on social media. You know, what we said American Airlines remove one olive, that's a $40,000. I went to post that on social media because I thought, oh, this is a good clip. And then you had asked, What from the savings of fuel? And I just said yes, because we were working really fast. And then I thought, it can't just be the same fuel. It must also be because olives are really expensive. And it it was more that olives are really expensive than the savings in fuel. So I did a quick uh kind of calculation on what I think the fuel saving was from removing one olive, and I think it was about five thousand dollars in a year, which is still a lot of money, but uh not quite as much as forty thousand. Yeah, not quite as social media clipworthy. That's why I didn't go up on social media. We'd like to take a moment to thank our sponsor, EcoSurety, who are on a mission to rid the world of unnecessary packaging. They help brands navigate the tricky world of extended producer responsibility, but that is not all. They also collaborate on some incredible recycling projects and consumer awareness campaigns for those tough to recycle materials. If you're an organization looking to make smarter packaging choices, check them out at ecosurety.com. And share our podcast. That's one of the best things you can do to help us grow or leave us a review. And for reasons that will become obvious at the end of the episode, we have bumped Robbie's review of the week to residual rubbish. Oh yeah, exciting times. Change in format, yes. So that'll that'll make people want to stick around for the end, right? Absolutely. It's one week only. However, what I will say about reviews is we've entered this whole new confusing phase of our podcast where we said to people, let us know your bin day at the end of the review. And now I can't tell if people are reviewing our podcast or telling me their bin day. So, as an example, I received a message on Instagram going, I love your podcast. My bins are collected on Saturday. And I was thinking, is this a review? Or is this just telling me when bin day is? I don't know. You can follow us at rubbishpodcast, you can email talkingrubbishpodcast at gmail.com, or you can WhatsApp us, also join our Discord, it's the easiest way to engage with us and listeners of the show. And the link to all those things can be found in the show notes. Now let's quickly talk about this petition because we are overrunning, but I've promised we've we've got to do it. I can't just keep it. It's been weeks in the making. I know. So I guess I was reflecting. We were saying that we would do this petition where because we don't like the word compostable on things that can't be composted. And one of the worst ones, in my opinion, is dog poo bags because there's just no route to composting. So what we would like brands who make compostable dog poo bags to do is to put on their website very, very clear instructions for how to home compost if people want to do that, and to make it clear that these things do not break down in the open environment. Long term, I want them to remove the word compostable, but ultimately I just want them to improve their communications when they sell a dog poo bag. And originally we said we might go to the ASA to get this sorted, but I've been reflecting over the past few months about how we're just trying to do nice things on this podcast. We don't want to be like, oh, and now we're complaining to the ASA. It's just not very, it's not our vibe. And so to solve it, what I thought we could do, and I don't know how you feel about this, Robbie, is I will write to all of these companies selling dog poo bags and say, please could you update your website so it says these things? Could you just improve your communications to consumers? And then the first few who do it, and should we say like three companies? The first three companies first of all become friends of the podcast, massive friends of the podcast, and we will talk about them on our show. I'm prepared to give the first three companies who do it some advertising. So we will do a little ad read for them and we will give them that little cheer that you heard earlier for Morrison's, and they will become official, talking rubbish friends of the podcast. And I'm really hoping that that will drive some people to make some changes. If it doesn't, then we can discuss the AESA. But I think for now, let's just support the companies that do improve their communications and improve their honesty. And I'm willing to give the first three companies that do that a bit of airtime.

SPEAKER_00 34:08

Yeah, it's a less nuclear option. I think you've got it absolutely spot on. Yeah, let's go for it. And I especially like the fact that you're gonna be doing the writing and not me. So I'm really up for it.

SPEAKER_01 34:19

I would I'll make it an open letter, I'll share it with all our listeners too. So shortly after this episode, maybe around this episode going out, you will be able to see that letter, and we can start talking to those companies and see if some of them are willing to make the change. Rubbish or not? So today's rubbish or not, and this is this was hilarious. So I got an email from David two days before our aeroplane episode went out, two days before, saying, are water pistols rubbish or not? What are the chances? What are the chances of that? Are we sure this David wasn't snooping on our recording, knew what was coming? No idea, and I just replied saying you are gonna laugh so much on Thursday. So, are water pistols rubbish or not? Well, the Super Soaker, which is obviously the big brand in the water pistol world, it first went on sale in 1990 and now has made over a billion dollars of sales in that time. It is extremely hard to find out what plastic they're made of. And as you will hear in our rubbish question today, I had to go to the toy shop for a different question, and I thought I'll try and find out what these water pistols are made of, and it's almost impossible. I suspect they are made of ABS, which is a very strong plastic. It's the plastic that Lego use. Water guns are gonna operate under pressure, so you're gonna need something strong that isn't just gonna crack and cause damage. So I think they're gonna be made of ABS or an or a different type of strong plastic, but unlikely to be made of like recycled content, things like that. So, Robbie, a assuming it is ABS or just a strong type of plastic, what do you reckon? Rubbish or not?

SPEAKER_00 36:03

I think it's rubbish. It's gotta be discarded. I think it probably can ultimately be recycled by someone can granulate it up and turn it into plastic pellets, but don't put this in your recycling bin at the curbside, because it's not like any other plastic packaging that gets picked up from your home.

SPEAKER_01 36:22

Absolutely, yeah. ABS does not get collected at curbside. Not that you'd want to throw out your Lego anyway, but maybe a broken water pistol you might throw out. Uh definitely won't be collected at curbside. You but you could take it to your local recycling centre, tip, dump, whatever we call it, if it was broken. Or if it wasn't broken, you could obviously donate it to charity. Of course, if you're really running out of ways of disposing of it and you don't want to do any of those things, just take it to the airport and let the border police get rid of it for you as probably Do not create more airport waste.

SPEAKER_00 36:53

Do not do that.

SPEAKER_01 36:55

Lesson learned. I did find while I was doing this research the Nerf Super Soaker XP20 AP, which is one of their one of their water pistols that has a tank, so the water, the bit you fill with water, made of recycled plastic bottles. So that must be PET, that bit. And that'll just be because that doesn't need to be under pressure, so they're able to use recycle content. So if you wanted a slightly more environmentally friendly water pistol, you could look for the Nerf Super Soaker XP20-AP. I guess this led me to think, what would what could you do that meant you didn't have to buy a toy? And I was thinking you could use an old PET bottle. If you just I don't know if this would work, but put a little hole in the end of the lid. Could you like squeeze the bottle and it would basically achieve the same thing? Would that work?

SPEAKER_00 37:41

Yeah, sounds like it would to me. I mean, you have to get a lot of pressure though. That's not gonna be as forceful as the super soaker.

SPEAKER_01 37:48

And we did have a lovely message last night from Broken Obelisk on Discord. No idea whose alias that is, but thank you very much, Broken Obelisk, for this. And they said, back in my student days, I was engaged in a game of killer where participants were allocated a random other student and had to ambush them unawares with a water pistol. This meant I travelled around at all times with a tiny loaded plastic water pistol in my satchel. And I just forgot it was there. At the end of term, I flew back to spend Christmas with my family, and my satchel was manually checked at security. The guard removed the tiny transparent green pistol and laughed. Oh no, she's smuggling a gun. Then pointed it at her colleague and pulled the trigger without realizing it was loaded. At which point they stopped laughing and I never got the water pistol back.

SPEAKER_00 38:32

That's amazing. Oh, that's so good. Literally squirted their colleague in the face with water. That's brilliant.

SPEAKER_01 38:40

Thank you for that, broken obelisk. It's great. Rubbish news. So recently we've been discussing litter, and a couple of episodes ago, we talked about whether you could pour liquid down a drain. There's been a great news story about litter. This is this is a very, very odd story. Natasha Sheldon Lane faced a fly tipping fine of 300 pounds because she visited an Audi and collected a Gymshark parcel from a collection locker. You know, like the Amazon lockers collected it from a collection locker in Flint. She unwrapped the parcel to check it and put the plastic wrapper in an on-street bin. Environmental crime officers decided this was fly tipping, as the envelope had her address on it. They deemed it to be household waste which should not be put in a public bin. Oh, I mean, this is this is real overzealous enforcement officers. This is pedantic in the extreme. Yeah, now I think I know why it's happened. The charge was actually dropped, just to explain. So under the Environmental Protection Act, which is the same thing we discussed with drinks littering, household or business waste goes in a dedicated bin, so your own bin, and things that you consume in public can go in public litter bins. Something with your address on is technically household waste. So that's where this is that's where she's come unstuck. But I would argue but she was out in public when she opened it. It does feel to me very unfair. I think this has come about because Flintshire Council have moved to three weekly bin collections, and there is a bit of a discussion about how they are seeing an increase in fly tipping. And so that I think they're going through the public bins more and more looking for household waste, and then obviously they can visit you if it's got your address on it. So I think that's what's happening, but it's a little bit too, you know, big brother for my liking. It's I don't really like this. But what Natasha could have done to avoid this whole situation is taken that envelope, because presumably it was like a plastic wrap from Gymshark, she could have taken that into Audi and put it in the flexible bin, and that would have been fine. So that's the way to not be fined is to take it back to the flexible bin that would have been in the store. But I do sympathize a lot here that I think this is just overzealous council officers.

SPEAKER_00 41:00

The news from me this week is about recycling of fishing nets. So I picked this one up uh a couple of days ago, and it's a one-man recycling revolution on the Cornish coast. A guy called Ian Faulkner, who's uh found a way to convert these nets into filament for 3D printing, and it can be used for all sorts of products from, as they say, motorbikes to sunglasses. Um, these nets are made from nylon, so not a very commonly recycled uh thing in the household. Obviously, there's clothes mostly you would see in the household made from nylon, but the nets effectively they go into a shredder and then they come out as these small kind of blue-green beads that then can be sold on to 3D printing companies who convert them into the long sort of filament that's used in 3D printing. And this guy, Ian,'s got a micro factory on site where he's kind of demoing the potential of this stuff. So it's amazing to know that this very small operation uh as it started out in Cornwall has suddenly turned old fishing nets that really were discarded, had no use, and turning it into something very modern and new. 3D printing is increasing all the time, isn't it? And we need the materials to go into those printers to make new products. And this nylon uh is being made into those filaments. So well done, Ian. I was very interested to read that.

SPEAKER_01 42:37

Rubbish question. So a rubbish question this week comes from friend of the podcast and my wife, Ellie, who asked what in the first of all, friend of the podcast, yeah, for sure. For sure. Obviously. Who asked, what does pre-consumer recycling mean? And this is because we had some friends over at the weekend and they were meeting my son for the first time, and they brought to him a poor patrol recycling truck.

SPEAKER_00 43:06

Oh, very cool.

SPEAKER_01 43:08

That's Rocky's truck. I know the character. It is Rocky's truck. And there was a sign on the front that said, made in part with pre-consumer recycled plastic. Now, everything we talk about is post-consumer recycling. Everything we've mentioned so far is always just what do we do as consumers? How do we recycle? So she was asking what this means. What pre-consumer recycling is, is basically using a material that has never reached us, has never made it to a consumer. So typically this will be industrial scrap. So when you're making plastic products, you're going to have some leftovers. Those leftovers can be melted and reused. And this will be from the manufacturing process. So plastic trimmings, defective parts, excess resin, offcuts, and typically things like toys will produce quite a lot of offcuts that you could then use in the process. So I think it was made in Vietnam, so I'm guessing what's happening is they're collecting up plastic that's made in the manufacturing site from other toys and then using it to make this truck. I was trying to find a lot of information about this. So Paul Patrol toys are distributed by a company called Spin Master, and they had like an impact report on their website, but it didn't really go into detail, so this is why I had to go to the toy shop. This is why I had to make that trip to go and find out if there are other toys that use pre-consumer plastic. And there are a lot I mean, you know a lot about Paul Patrol because you've said Rocky there, but there seem to be a lot of Paul Patrol collections. I could have got maybe six different Rockys across different using the same sorts of trucks, but they all had slightly different packaging, slightly different looks. So each of the characters seemed to have a truck in lots and lots of different collections. And there was one specific collection that did this pre-consumer recycling thing. But all six characters had pre-consumer recycling within this collection. It wasn't just the recycling truck.

SPEAKER_00 45:04

So it was like a special edition where they were trying to promote um greener products, maybe or something.

SPEAKER_01 45:11

Something like that. Yeah, I couldn't quite understand. It was it was quite odd. It wasn't obviously promoting a greener product. It said it on the front of the packaging, sure, but it didn't go, and this is our green collection. It just looked like all the others, just with pre-consumer written on the front. What I found interesting is that each of the six characters had different percentages of pre-consumer recycling. So Ryder had 52% of their of their vehicle was uh pre-consumer, Sky was 65%, Zuma was 68%, and then Chase, Marshall, and Rocky all had 80%. So if you've got kids, those names probably mean something to you. Very specific. Yeah. Very specific. And yeah, it did make me laugh because I guess you could have just put the same info on all of them and said greater than 50%, but they obviously wanted to be specific because you want to be shouting about the 80%, definitely. I think what was interesting is the discussion Ellie and I had was she was like, Well, surely this isn't recycling. You know, this doesn't count as recycling, does it? But just to look at the definition of recycling is the action or process of converting waste into reusable material. So a lot of times when we're deciding if something has been recycled or not, we have to decide whether the product or packaging has become waste. That's the main question that we ask ourselves. And offcuts and you know, the things I discuss, so defective parts, excess resin, plastic trimmings, they are all considered waste. So at that point, you are recycling when you're turning them from the the off-cut back into a product. That is recycling, even though it never reached a consumer.

SPEAKER_00 46:50

But of course, from a business practice purpose, of course they would be doing this. Why would they be paying to get rid of scrap when they can melt it back down, use it again, and make this collection of toys? So, in a way, I don't mind this because it's companies being efficient and it is decreasing waste, as you say, James.

SPEAKER_01 47:15

This is the part of a show where we get to say something that has happened to us this week that has made us feel like an emoji. As I mentioned at the top, I went to London Packaging Week, which is all about packaging, not necessarily sustainability, but got a very big sustainability focus. I would say all the talks are sustainability led, certainly the ones I saw. Um, a lot of the companies there are innovating in packaging. So I think it's got a sustainability focus. I met up with Vicki and Sophie from John Lewis. So hi guys, and it was great to chat to them about the podcast, and we know they listen, that's really nice. And on her way in, Vicki had taken a picture, which she was going to send to me for the podcast, so she got the opportunity to show me the picture. And it was Starbucks that morning, so Starbucks the morning of the conference, and it was really busy, and they'd put all the cups that were ready to be, you know, filled with coffee on the side, all labelled up ready to be filled. And she was showing me this picture of just a table full of single-use coffees, coffee cups, with three reusable, you know, thermoses in amongst the pack. And she said, All of those are John Lewis staff, those three. She was like, I can name who those three belong to, and all of those single-use cups for everyone else. And this isn't promoting her or John Lewis, it's just an observation that it's amazing when you go to these sustainability conferences and you just get this table of single use, and the only reusable thing is yours or your colleagues, and it it can be quite disheartening. So I think we'll try and share that picture on social media. But thank you, Vicky, for sharing that with me. I thought it was great.

SPEAKER_00 48:50

And for my residual rubbish this week, I mean, in terms of an emoji, I'm not sure, smiling ear to ear, but also shocked. And this is the link to Robbie's review of the week because we got such a comprehensive and kind review from Recycling Dad via Apple.

SPEAKER_01 49:10

So we're just gonna And we just thought it's so long we actually can't put it in the middle. If we put it at the end, so here's our suggestion grab a cup of coffee or tea, sit back, because it's a long review, and we're gonna read it out word for word because we love it so much. But it also means because it's at the end, if you're thinking I haven't got time to listen to a five-minute review, you can switch off now. We love it, and we're gonna have to take it in turns to read out because it is so long. Okay, great.

SPEAKER_00 49:39

You are gonna help me out with this.

SPEAKER_01 49:40

Yeah, you kick us off and then I'll I'll come in occasionally.

SPEAKER_00 49:43

Okay, so the headline is BIM Fluencing Behavior Change. James and Robbie, thank you for this gem of a podcast. I found you via a bit of a weird route. My better half recommended the podcast to my ten year old son and nine-year-old daughter who started listening to it. I overheard bits at bedtime and was worried we were going to create some very weird kids. Why would a nine and ten year olds be listening to deep dives into waste management and rubbish legislation? Surely this was a route to them being bullied at school. Then they started discussing it with one another, saying hello, talking about James and Robbie like they were friends from school and quoting Alan Partridge to me.

SPEAKER_01 50:28

During the summer holidays we stayed in a tepee together and the kids insisted on putting the podcast on as they went to bed. I was forced to listen and found myself strangely drawn in. I've since realized my perceptions were daft prejudice, and I've now started daytime listening as well. Who knew waste legislation and regulation could be so interesting? The community around James and Robbie is amazing, and it still feels small enough that every interaction is acknowledged by the hosts.

SPEAKER_00 50:56

My kids listen to each episode repeatedly and now know so much about recycling and broader topics, material composition, manufacturing processes, and they have a real and genuine appreciation for the circular economy, which otherwise they'd only have the most basic knowledge of. They've influenced me to listen and held me to account for our purchasing choices and waste management practices. I now consciously make informed choices, read OPRLs every time, and check our council website. I even look at packaging before making a purchase to see what recycled content it contains.

SPEAKER_01 51:34

Our bedtime story at the moment is the rubbish book, and we love talking about what things are made of, where they come from, why certain material choices have been made, and what alternatives exist. My son is now super knowledgeable about aluminium production and its processes, and he's developed an early appreciation for chemistry. My daughter even included notes about recycling and waste management in her application to be a science ambassador at school. She also bribed her way in with home-baked cake she'd made.

SPEAKER_00 52:00

I volunteer with a Cub Scout group, and we recently ran a week on recycling and waste management. At my daughter's request, I started the evening with a long hello and introduced the other leaders as far from rubbish friends. All the content we covered came from the rubbish book and the podcast. I now see the kids thinking about where they put what, and some have even held their parents to account for following what's on the OPRL.

SPEAKER_01 52:29

We recently took a trip to the newly refurbished National Media Museum in Bradford and all sat down to enjoy a documentary they'd produced on the recycling of televisions in West Yorkshire, a likely field trip for the hosts. I see a genuine change in myself and my kids thanks to this podcast. Keep up the great work. I hope the community and influencing continues to grow, and I hope kids and parents engage with the content and go on a learning journey with you.

SPEAKER_00 52:52

Episodes are professionally produced, and James and Robbie hold themselves to account to improve the content and knowledge they're spreading. Each week I find myself looking forward to Bindey more and more. As a listener and community member, I feel like we're part of the development of the episodes and the trajectory of the show. James and Robbie both come across as massively positive role models for kids and parents, and they teach all of us a bit about m being more responsible and making better choices for our world. Their pledge to pick apart one-sided stories is upheld, and they thoughtfully and critically consider the topics in depth. This is handy for me. I just do what they say now.

SPEAKER_01 53:31

There's a genuine warmth to the production and content which reflects the passionate nature and mission-driven purpose of this podcast. This is about spreading the word, and Robbie and James's values shine through and inspire me and other members of the influencing community. I've got to go now, my flexible recycling bag is full. P.S. Robbie, I'm also the kind of person who would take a water pistol through airport security. Whoa. That's amazing. It's it is unbelievable. If you've made it this far, thank you so much for listening the whole way through it, because that is a very long review. And Recycling Dad, we just honestly, both of us were very emotional reading that. And it just it makes it all worth it, right? You know all this time that is spent putting this podcast together, it makes it worth it to know that people are listening and really enjoying it. And it is actually making a difference to people. We we just love that so much. Thank you. And to all of you, thank you so much for listening. If you fancy also writing us an essay, feel free, and we can be in Robbie's residual rubbish in the future. Thank you so much. Even just the reviews that say very good, see above. We love those too. We love the easy ones, the ones we can read in 30 seconds and the ones we can read in five minutes. Thank you for the reviews and engagement. And as always, we love getting the opportunity to do this podcast. Make sure you join our Discord, follow us on social media at rubbishpodcast. You can email talkingrubbishpodcast at gmail.com or you can WhatsApp us. And all of those things can be found in the show notes, as can the link tree where you can find information about the show and all the things we've discussed today. All that's left for me to say is see you next bin day. Bye. Bye.