45. Recycling labels explained, with Alice Harlock from OPRL

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James Piper: Hello. Welcome to Talking Rubbish, a weekly podcast diving deep into the world of recycling and discussing the truth behind snappy headlines and one sided stories. I'm James Piper, author of the Rubbish Book. And I'm joined by Robbie Staniforth, my Far From Rubbish friend. And we are joined by Alice Harlock from oprl, our Far From Rubbish guest. Good morning, Robbie.

Robbie Staniforth: Hey, James.

James Piper: Hello. Right, before we bring Alice in, we got some things to discuss for sure now, episode 43, I said I went into sports direct and got a bag, a backpack, and they offered me a bag.

Robbie Staniforth: Yes, a bag for your bag. I remember.

James Piper: Yes. Well, Ellie and I are off on holiday.

Robbie Staniforth: Okay.

James Piper: So she had to buy a new bat. She bought like a tote bag, you know, because we've got so much baby stuff now.

Robbie Staniforth: Okay. It's a house full of bags, isn't it? This.

James Piper: I know it is a bit bad. She also bought a bag and was also offered a bag for her bag. It's an epidemic.

Robbie Staniforth: Bags for bags.

James Piper: Epidemic or pandemic? Which one is it? I don't know, but it's a. This is a serious issue. Is this a feature? Should we get listeners?

Alice Harlock: Right.

James Piper: Have you tried to buy a bag in a store and also been offered a carrier bag for a bag you have purchased? Yes. She, like me, was like, you're on the podcast. She came straight home, wanted to tell me. Very excited. I also saw a really funny post on. I think it was Facebook or Instagram, can't remember. But it was like very British problems, you know, that kind of like. Yeah, you know, pointing out all the things us Brits do. And number one on Extreme British challenges was bring the empty wheelie bin back in. But you have to have a quick peek in it first. We all do that, don't we? We know it's empty. You can feel it, you know it's. But we all have a little look in the lid.

Robbie Staniforth: Just check you got a peek. Yeah, it's empty. Strange that.

James Piper: Yeah, it's really weird. We'll have to find out if Alice does that. You can see that they've already been and got. You know, you've watched your neighbours get taken. Why do we all do it?

Robbie Staniforth: You can see it's moved from the original spot. You know, it's slightly on the like angle or something. You know that one of the refuse operatives has tipped it. But you still peek in.

Alice Harlock: Yeah.

James Piper: Addition to corrections. So we're gonna have a bit of a coffee cup moment here. Robbie. Done our coffee cup episodes, but I've had some more Coffee. Coffee cup. Thoughts?

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, no, what have we got wrong?

James Piper: No, no, these are just cough. But the first one is just a thought. Yeah. I mean, this morning I'm going to confess this morning I needed a coffee on the way in. We get in so early. The coffee machine in the office hasn't been warmed up. So I just thought, I need a coffee.

Robbie Staniforth: That's true, that's true.

James Piper: By the way, I've been religiously bringing my yeti reusable cup, but unfortunately today I forgot it. So. Yes. So I got a single use cup this morning and I just was observing and I want to know if listeners feel the same. You know, I was observing that I felt so guilty buying this single use.

Robbie Staniforth: Good. So you should.

James Piper: But then I was like, but if I'm out and about and I decide to buy a meal deal from Tesco, for example, or Sainsbury's or wherever they sell a meal deal, you're going to get your sandwiches, your side start. What do they call it? Snack. They don't call it a side.

Robbie Staniforth: Yes, side.

James Piper: Your main, your side and your drink. Right. That's your meal. And I, I never feel guilty about getting that drink because I'm like, oh, it's cheaper. I have to get the drink. So why am I so. On the very rare occasion I get a coffee cup, I feel so guilty. But a bottle in a meal deal, I don't feel guilty about. And I just was like observing how I feel and then kind of just sharing that to see if listeners feel the same.

Robbie Staniforth: Pet bottles recyclable, maybe. Or the like can of drink you get is more recyclable as an item, whereas the paper cup is a problem. Maybe that's.

James Piper: Why do you think the average person's thinking like that? I mean, maybe listeners are. Ryan, saying, I never feel guilty buying a coffee cup. Maybe that's how people feel. But I don't think that's our listeners. Based on the coffee cup episodes we've done and what they've.

Robbie Staniforth: What they've said, I don't think they get the meal deal. These are people who have got their Tupperwares for their packed lunch, fastidiously bringing their leftovers to work.

James Piper: Okay, but if you don't do that and you do buy a meal deal and you do occasionally buy a coffee cup, can someone back me up that there are different bits of packaging we feel more guilty buying? It's weird, isn't it?

Robbie Staniforth: It is strange, yeah. How it just feels different, a cup to a bottle in a meal deal, you're right.

James Piper: Yeah. Anyway, those are my confessions but related to coffee cups. Unfortunately we have had news that the Scottish single use cup charge is likely to be del.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh yeah. We sort of thought that might be the case, didn't we? We had an inkling.

James Piper: We did say it. Now we felt very frustrated but. Or I feel very frustrated by this. We did feel it might be coming. This charge was due to come in at the end of 2025.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah.

James Piper: Now the biggest frustration for me is it appears to be the Federation

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James Piper: of Independent Retailers who would like this coffee cup charge stopped and they believe instead of a 25p charge on a coffee cup, which is what was proposed. So 25p on a single use cup.

Robbie Staniforth: Okay.

James Piper: To quote them they say little outs.

Robbie Staniforth: Little outs. Hey, come on. They've coined a good term. There aren't.

James Piper: They should be given fines of 500 pound or 1000 pounds instead of the single use cup charge. Now I'm like there's not a lot of link behind this. Like what we're talking about with a single use cup charge is material use and driving reuse and what they are then linking it back to is just find the litterers more. Is that nothing to do with litter? It's to do with using loads of material and making 3.2 billion cups a year. Interestingly, Scotland actually has one of the highest rates of coffee cup use at 71 cups per person per year. So that's one of the highest in Europe.

Robbie Staniforth: As in that's a bad thing. They're consuming a lot of single use cups. Yeah. Just drinking.

James Piper: Yeah, absolutely. They're not feeling guilty. They're out getting their meal deal at lunch and their coffee cups in the morning. But look, I've done a lot of work on reusable cups. I know how much it costs to collect, wash and redistribute a coffee cup and you need a single use charge to make reuse systems work. You know if you're going to collect wash, redistribute cups and you're going to look at making reusable sustainable and really work, then you need a charge on single use to balance the other side of it. And this was an opportunity for that to happen. I suspect it will now get cancelled and it's just so frustrating. It's going the same way that England did. Yeah.

Robbie Staniforth: Especially at the amount of cups you use.

James Piper: That's it. I'm never confessing to anything again ever, ever, ever. On this podcast, confessions are out.

Robbie Staniforth: All those 25ps will add up when you're in Scotland. James, Very poor man.

James Piper: As always. We'd like to take a moment to thank our sponsor, EcoSecurity, who are on a mission to rid the world of unnecessary packaging. They help brands navigate the tricky world of extended producer responsibility. But that is not all. They also collaborate on some incredible recycling projects and consumer awareness campaigns for those tough to recycle materials. If you're an organisation looking to make smarter packaging choices, check them out@ecosurity.com and just a reminder, the best thing you can do to help us grow is to leave us a review. So if you're listening to this on Apple or Spotify, you can just leave a star rating. And if you're on Apple, you can write some nice words which we really appreciate and you might get featured in Robbie's review of the week, which is just around the corner. If you want to get hold of us on social media, we're obbish podcast across all the social platforms. You could find us on Discord, which is where everyone gathers to just ask us loads of questions and we just have lots and lots of chats about bins and rubbish. So if you want to join our Discord, the link is in the show notes. Our email is talking rubbish podcastmail.com and you can WhatsApp us and to be honest, you can get a hold of us in so many ways and all of them are available in the show notes. And everything we discussed today that we think is interesting and worth sharing, we will put on our link tree. And again, the link of that is in our show notes. So, Robbie, do you have a review of the week?

Robbie Staniforth: Yes, I do and it's one of those, oh, gosh, I've lost it now. Where's it gone?

James Piper: Is that the review?

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, gosh.

James Piper: Oh, gosh, they've lost it.

Robbie Staniforth: The guy's name was Mike. Hello, Mike. Hello. Where is. Oh, there it is. Okay, this is a five star review. Recycling better. Who knew this stuff was so complicated? James and Robbie make recycling fascinating and fun. Can't wait for the Black Plastic episode. So the Black Plastic episode has come out. So I hope Mike hello. Enjoyed it.

James Piper: Yes, thank you, Mike. We can tell you're reaching into the past for these reviews now if it's look forward to future episode that was what episode 26.

Robbie Staniforth: But I don't just want to read out the the latest review because then we'll just have. Oh no, I do want to read out the latest review because then people will start writing in. I didn't realise that's what we were doing, James.

James Piper: No, no, it's up to you which one you pick. But if you start doing like, I've listened to one episode now and wow, Ted, bottle cap. So really good.

Robbie Staniforth: First one's good. Can't wait for the rest.

James Piper: Today we are joined by Alice Harlock, who is the director of technical and member services at oprl, which is the On Pack Recycling label. And I think it's fair to say, Robbie, we have promo this episode for quite some time.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, a lot. This has been teased and trailed for a number of episodes now.

James Piper: Yeah. And we get so many people writing, don't we, saying, why does this say recycle? And why does

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James Piper: this say don't recycle? And I thought Robbie and James said this was recyclable, but it still says don't recycle. And oh, my goodness, we get so many that we thought, we've got to get the experts in.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, yeah, absolutely. Don't blame us, blame Alice. That's what we're going through here and.

James Piper: Alice is the expert. I mean, there was a bit of a debate as to who was going to represent APRL for this. This episode. Right. And we just. Once we heard Alice was coming, I thought, she's going to know the answer to every question we could possibly ask. So no pressure and welcome, Alice.

Alice Harlock: Hi.

James Piper: Thanks.

Alice Harlock: Thanks very much for having me.

James Piper: Is that good? Is that a good intro? You know, you now more nervous?

Alice Harlock: Yeah, absolutely. Expectations are quite high, but that's fine.

Robbie Staniforth: Let's set the bar high.

Alice Harlock: Yeah.

James Piper: So, Alice, we want to start right at the beginning. Right, so tell us a bit about oprl. We're gonna have to say oprl, not the On Pack Recycling label. So tell us a bit about oprl. How did it start and what is it?

Alice Harlock: So we are a company that work with retailers and brands, lots of people across the packaging supply chain. And what we are trying to do is make it easier for everyone, you and I, when we're at home, to understand what we can do with our packaging when we finished with it. So we work with them to put recycling labels on packaging and it. Sometimes it will say recycle and sometimes it will say do not recycle. But. But it's about making sure that we are doing the right thing with that piece of packaging when we're finished with it. So we've been going for 16 years. We started, yeah, in 2009 and basically it was a group of retailers that got together with the British Retail Consortium and with wrap at the time and said, what more can we do? To help consumers, to help them give them that information so they know what to do with their packaging. So at the time, there was a huge amount of communications that was being done by Rapp and local authorities using the Recycle now swoosh. So that's the little arrow with the heart at the end. And basically what they looked at was taking that symbol, incorporating it into a label that appears on packaging with that instruction then. So that when you finish with that packaging, you know whether you need to put it in your recycling bin or whether you put it in your rubbish bin.

James Piper: And it used to be way more complicated, right? You had like a widely recycled and then a check locally and all that stuff. But you have moved to just recycle, don't recycle.

Alice Harlock: So one of the things that's really important for us is that what we are saying to people is really easy to understand. And that's what we're looking at, is how can we make that message as straightforward as possible? And also at the same time, the recycling landscape has changed. If you think about what collections were like in 2009 and the number of local authorities that were collecting different materials, it was not quite the same as we are now. So now we've got more consistency, we've got similar sets of materials being collected. It's meant that we can make that message easier and just say, recycle it or do not recycle it, basically.

James Piper: And I guess that's the big question our listeners often have. You know, how do you make that decision? Because one council might say something's recycled and another might say something isn't recycled. So how does a consumer know to trust the label?

Alice Harlock: So essentially, we've done the hard work for you. You don't have to worry about that. We've asked some questions about that packaging, we've found out what's happening. So our labelling scheme is a UK labelling scheme. And so when we put a recycle label on a piece of packaging, we want to know that the majority of the people in the UK are able to recycle that. So if we think about how is that material going to be collected, if it's going to go into your household recycling collections, we want to know that actually over 75% of councils are collecting that material, so the majority of people are able to put it into their recycling collections. And if it's not that, then we have to look at other options. So actually, if it's less than 50%, that's when we say, do not recycle because that's not majority yet, that's not enough. And if it's between 50 and 75, that's when we have the, you know, you need to check where you are, basically label to tell people they need to do a little bit more.

James Piper: Okay, yeah. It's really interesting because we have people, you know, listeners, and this is nobody's fault. We also have the same, often the two of us, and we kind of understand this stuff where you've got like a flexible plastic and sometimes it might say, don't recycle, and sometimes it says recycle. And in your mind, well, it's just a clear flexible. How can this be any different? But actually, if one's made of PET and one's made of ldpe, they will have different rules and we won't know the chemistry. So that's why we need these really simple labels. Right.

Alice Harlock: And it's really hard to tell from looking at a piece of packaging. Yeah, you can tell it's made of a plastic, but you don't know what material is. You don't know if there's any additives on there. Is there any other barriers that are going to impact the way it's recycled? So what we do when we're thinking about how to label it, we'll look at the collection, we'll look at that material going through the sorting process. So once it

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Alice Harlock: goes off to the mrf, that materials recovery facility, is it going to be able to be sorted into the right material? You know, make sure it's not too small, that it's going to drop through, or that it's not going to be detected properly? Then can it be reprocessed? So is it going to make it through the reprocessor system and come out the other end and also then make sure that there's a viable end product for that material as well, so that it's going to go on somewhere and be used. That doesn't have to be packaging. I mean, obviously that's the ideal, that's what we'd like. But that's not always possible. But we need to know that that material is going to be used and it's only if we can kind of tick all of those boxes. So the collection, sorting, reprocessing and the end market. Market, that's when we say, yes, good, we'll give that a recycle label.

Robbie Staniforth: And so are you continually reviewing that? Because as you say, it's changed loads since 2009. So is it something that you're literally doing week to week or is it year to year? How do you keep keep up to date with the advice and guidance you're giving on labelling?

Alice Harlock: Luckily, not week to week. It does tend to be more of a kind of a yearly, sometimes even twice yearly basis. But actually what we do is we're not working on our own with this, so we have good connections with people like the material association. So, you know, the associations that represent the plastic or the paper or the beverage cartons, and we talk to them about what's going on in terms of reprocessing, what changes are there? We also work very closely with wraps still in terms of local authority collections. So we're tracking what's going on with changes in local authority collections. Obviously, we've got the really, I think, quite exciting, simpler recycling that's coming in, which is going to make life so much easier, because we're going to have that consistent set of materials collected across England, which then means that confusion is gone for a lot of people. It should be that if you go on holiday in Cornwall, you can recycle the same things as you can when you're at home. Your bins might look a little bit different, the colours might be a little bit different, but still the same set of materials will be there, so that's a lot easier. So it's not just us, it's us working with others to get them to help us and get the information they got from us from them as well.

Robbie Staniforth: And. And so, as you say there, you know, this is doing the hard work so people don't have to at home. Have you measured, like, how much impact have these labels had on recycling behaviours?

Alice Harlock: That's a really good question and it's really tricky to do. So I started my recycling career many years ago talking to people about home composting and I worked with lots of different councils about on home composting programmes and we always wanted to, you know, really test. We've sent out a leaflet. What impact has that had? The truth of the matter is the landscape around recycling is always really noisy. So, yes, we might be putting labels on packaging, but there'll be information that's coming out on social media. There might be something in the news, there might be something that the council is doing. So you put them all together and they have an impact. You try and isolate how much that impact is of each one and it's really tricky to kind of see that separate thing. What we do know, because we have been talking to consumers since we started, is we are now more Reliant on looking at packaging for information about what to do with when we're finished with it. So when we started this in 2009, we would ask people, where do you go for your source of information about recycling? And a lot of them use the stuff they get from the council. So you might get a leaflet. I used to get a calendar, a bin calendar that I'd stick up on the fridge so I'd know with a list of what to put in and whatnot. But over time those have kind of had to drop off as council budgets have been, you know, more restricted. But then we've also seen more labels starting to appear on packaging and so the go to place now over 90% of us are saying, I look on packaging for that information about what to do with it when I've finished with it. So I can't give you figures, but I do know that more people are looking at packaging for that information.

James Piper: Yeah. And we might have an unnatural skew of our listenership, but certainly we get a lot of questions about this. So what do you do when like someone shared, I think it was last week, someone shared in our discord, like the McVities wrapper, which still had don't recycle and something like, you know, we're in partnership with TerraCycle, so you can post it through their schemes. And they were asking, well, why isn't that recycle with bags at larger supermarkets, which would be the more up to date label. How do you deal with kind of the time changes between you guys making a decision on how something should be labelled and then it appearing on pack for us as a consumer?

Alice Harlock: And that's a really tricky balance because obviously every time we make a change. So you're right that, you know, the fact now that these biscuit wrappers can go back to those recycling points

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Alice Harlock: at supermarkets is great. And we communicate that out to our membership and say this has changed. But ultimately they are not just dealing with one packet of biscuits, they're dealing with whole set of other items as well, all of which they've got to look at the artwork for. And every time they make a change to the artwork, there's a cost involved. So when we communicate those changes, we always give our members a transition period and say, look, you need to update this, but here's a couple of years to allow you to do that, to fit in with the cycle of everything else that you're dealing with, all the other changes that you're having to make. A lot of the time, you know, when we see that move to a positive message. People are quite keen to make that change. So it does happen. But you will sometimes see some stragglers that take a bit longer to kind of go through the process.

James Piper: Yeah, I think I'm intrigued as to your view on kind of how you make a label work across different. Different territories. So, you know, I know that you and I have had a conversation with the Americans who do this and they have a labelling system. I think it's called how to Recycle. And one of the challenges they have is they need a label that works across 50 states and, and different states will have different rules. So I think from memory, they sort of go lowest common denominator, you know, so you could be in a state where something is recycled, but it might say, don't recycle, because there's another state that doesn't allow it. And we sort of have a similar thing over here with the eu, where you have a label that's very UK specific. So a good example is, take back to supermarkets and someone might, you know, a company may be printing that same packaging across multiple countries, where that messaging makes no sense. So how do you deal with kind of cross territory, cross border, different messages, different rules. What? You know, I occasionally buy a bottle of water. If I was buying a bottle of water, I'd buy like a San Pellegrino. And on it, it's got like the value of the deposit, which is like the German deposit or the Norwegian deposit. I'm not even sure which one it is. And. And how do you deal with that, with the label?

Alice Harlock: It's. It is a challenge. And, you know, so we're a membership organisation and a lot of our members sell across the different markets, so they're. They're coming to us with these questions all the time. But one of the things that we do with our labels currently is we've got the option that they can put UK only on there. So it's making it clear that this message is for the uk. But then I think the other thing we need to be aware of is the legislation that's coming from Europe. So I'm sure you guys have talked about ppwr, the Packaging and Packaging Waste Regulations, which is a European piece of legislation that's looking at packaging and packaging waste. And how do you improve the recyclability? How do you improve the recycled content within that? There is a piece looking at labelling, but interestingly, the approach that they've taken is it's based on the sorting of that material. So it's not necessarily about what happens to that material, it's more about you've got a piece of plastic, therefore you put it in the plastic bin. So it said it's an image based system. And the idea would be that the image is on your piece of packaging and then it matches up with the image that's on your bin. And so, you know, you sort it in the right way, which helps. Then, obviously, if you're dealing with a whole variety of different collection systems, as long as the materials are there, then you can match it up. I guess the, the downside, from my point of view of that, is that when we've spoken to people about, you know, what happens, why are they recycling? They know that by doing their recycling, they are doing their bit and they want to help. And I worry that if you take that kind of message away about put it in the recycling bin, you know, you're losing that kind of positive message slightly. And, you know, the value of the material that we've got is so important. We want people to do the right thing to make sure that we're getting that value back. And I just. I don't know, maybe I'm being slightly negative, but, yeah, it's a different approach.

James Piper: I also think from an EU perspective, we know that people don't spend a long time thinking about what to put in their bin. And there's something very simple about the recycle, don't recycle message. That kind of keeps us in that space of I can do that in 0.1 seconds, or whatever it is that people hover over a bin for. And the second you're like, and we're telling you which bin or which material, for a portion of the population, that would be a really positive move. Definitely. But for people who don't have time to think about it or don't want to think about it, or don't really care, actually, it's quite a complex message and. And particularly because I think the only way of making things like that work, where you've got kind of this is paper, is you have to start mandating the colours that councils use. And the second you start getting into that realm, you now need the councils to scrap all their

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James Piper: old bins and put new bins out. You've got the carbon associated with that. So people tend not to like dictating what council should do. And really that's the only way of making that kind of labelling effective. It's like paper is always read in every city you're in. And this Label is always red, then I think it can work.

Alice Harlock: That is really interesting, but such a huge challenge. One of the things that they're looking at in the European scheme is the labels themselves. So the labels that they're looking at are image based, like I said. And as you said, James, there's different colours for different materials. But how many times do you look at a piece of packaging and everything's just printed in black or, you know, it's just two colours. Are you going to ask all the retailers and the brands they need to add these extra inks into that process. So it's not just necessarily changing the bins, it's then the add on cost about the extra stuff they've got to put into the printing. It's just a huge challenge. Absolutely a huge challenge. So I don't envy them that one, I have to be honest.

Robbie Staniforth: So when these new EPR regulations were coming in in the UK originally there was supposed to be like a mandated label. So that there was a label saying recycle or do not recycle on every piece of packaging that sort of, not necessarily quietly got shelved, but it got shelved. Why was that? It seems like something so obvious to complement a new recycling system in the uk.

Alice Harlock: So it's been postponed, I think is the technical term, Robbie. And it was basically not like the.

James Piper: Scottish single use may get cancelled. This is, this is official postponement, this.

Alice Harlock: Is postponed with a plan for the future. So not fully detailed, but there is a plan. So, so basically I think you've talked about this before when you talked about the, the cup take back scheme. But when the EPR regs were ready to go, they had to go to consultation with the EU and the World Trade Association Organisation. Sorry. And because of the labelling bit, it was, you know, to do with trade. So that's, that's where they went off. And at that point what happened was the EU raised a few concerns around the labelling because of what they were looking at through PPWR and DEFRA made the, a pretty sensible decision actually, that they couldn't resolve that in time for the legislation going into Parliament and so decided that what they would do, rather than hold EPR up, they wanted to keep the momentum going. So they took it out for the time being so as to avoid the delay, basically. So the plan is now that when we have the detail from the EU and the PPWR labelling, that DEFRA will look at that and then think about, okay, so what does that mean for what the UK mandatory labelling will Be. There will still be a mandatory label for epr, but we don't know what that will look like and it will be a couple of years probably before we fully know the detail on that.

Robbie Staniforth: So what do you think, like 2027, 2028, that kind of time we might get a mandated label on recycling in the uk.

Alice Harlock: Yeah, I mean, I think the EU labelling is kind of summer 26, so it would then be whatever defra need to do to take that away and consult and review or whatever. So, yeah, maybe 2027. Please don't hold me.

Robbie Staniforth: No, it's just good to. I mean, it's great that the label's there and it is. It's widely used, isn't it? How widely used is it? Have you got figures on that?

Alice Harlock: So we are close to a thousand members now, which is very exciting and we have, I think, over 90% of grocery brands. So when we started, as I said, it was kind of retailers that first came to us and a lot of the food and drink brands. So we've got a really good, strong presence in the food and drink. But since then we've been working with all sorts of people, so toy companies, plumbing supplies, you know, garden stuff, we're starting to creep in everywhere. And I think that's like you said, James, it's that. It's that giving people confidence that they're doing the right thing when they're looking. That split second decision about, I finished with this, what do I do with it? Have a quick check on the packaging and then you know which bin you can put it in.

James Piper: And it is funny, the only really communication we get about it is when it doesn't feel intuitive, you know, and so 99% of people will look at that label and go, recycle, don't recycle. That simple. It's when, as I say, you have two bits of flexible, one says recycle at supermarket, one says don't recycle, that we get people right in. So, you know, I think what's really good about it is we clearly have listeners who spend a lot of time thinking about this stuff because that's what the emails we get. And it gives us a good opportunity to talk about it, I guess, coming to that flexible plastic look, I want to talk about some controversies here because, like, yeah, we could keep talking about how amazing the label is, but it is ultimately a controversial thing as well, because. So, for instance, with flexibles, and we've done a whole episode on flexible plastics, it's very

00:30:00

James Piper: complicated as to whether that flexible gets recycled at the end. And you know, our argument, and we will always stand by this argument, is it's better for it to be collected separately because at least we're giving it a chance to be recycled, than putting it in our general bin where it's definitely going to get incinerated. Some of what we give to supermarkets will be incinerated, some of it will be recycled. And I guess because you have a label that says recycle and you've explained very well as to why you have that label, I'm intrigued as that whether it kind of give brands, gives brands a free pass to create flexibles because they can go, oh, now it can be collected at supermarket, that's great. And actually it's really hard then to tell the next bit of the story, which then sometimes comes out in the media. How do you endeavour to balance between kind of of the media aspect of this, which is they said it was going to get recycled, but it doesn't, and the truth, which is it's really, really complicated and we've got to just put one word on a piece of packaging.

Alice Harlock: It is a tricky one. And I guess there's two things that we tend to try and think about. So firstly, what. One of the things that we are really clear with our members is that our label is a consumer instruction. So it's not a claim. We're not saying put this label on and 100% of it is going to go off and be recycled. This is the instruction to the consumer, to you and I, about what to do when we finish with that packaging. And obviously the really important thing about getting to levels of good, levels of recycling is that. That really clear communication. Sorry. And that consumers know what they need to do with that piece of packaging. So it's like you said, we could have fantastically recyclable packaging, but if we don't know what to do with it and it doesn't make it into the system, it's never going to be recycled. The label to give that instruction is so important to make sure that the material is there, to give it that chance to be able to go through the process, to get recycled and to be turned into something else.

Robbie Staniforth: And so the label itself, then it's an instruction. So is that why it's not on the front of the pack?

Alice Harlock: Pretty much, yeah. I mean, we. I think when we started we used to actually say, put it on the back of the pack. We don't anymore. But if you think about it, if you had a piece of packaging at Home and you were looking for cooking instructions, for example, you would look on the back. Normally, if you're looking for kind of storage instructions, you look on the back. That's the bit of packaging that's used for the kind of the information. Whereas the front of the packaging is for the this is me, look at me, I'm made of this material, or this is what I do kind of stuff. And so it's kind of intuitive that we look at the back of the pack for that instruction, for the information. And so that's where the labels kind of fit nicely with the rest of the information that's there.

James Piper: I'm interested in one of the challenges that you might have around independence because obviously your members are the people putting the label on the packaging and they want a recycling label. I assume they don't want to put out a piece of packaging that says don't recycle. How do you balance that? You know, we're paid by Brand X because they're our member and they want a recycle label. But we need to hold strong and say, actually this isn't recyclable. How do you maintain that independence when there's a potential conflict? I guess there.

Alice Harlock: Yeah, no, you're right. But. But we, I guess one of the things that's important to us and through the consumer research that we've done, we have seen that the value in both labels for the consumer is as important as, you know, one is not more important than the other. So there is. The do not recycle label is just as important for us at home as the recycle label.

James Piper: Okay, that's interesting.

Alice Harlock: And because the other thing, if you think about it, we all heard the term of wish cycling. You know, people who think I should be doing recycling this because I'm pretty sure it should be able to make it through the system. And that just causes problems. Actually, if we can have a do not recycle label on that piece of packaging that tells the consumer, not yet, you know, you can't recycle it, it means we're going to stop that contamination. And so we improve the quality of the material that's going through the recycling stream. So we are very open with our members at the benefits of both. You know, it's not just about the recycle label. You need to use the do not recycle label as well. And one of the things that we do is we do audit our members. So we do actually go and check and see how they're using the labels and then make sure that they're doing it correctly. So it's important to us that both those labels are there so that it helps us at home to know what to do best.

Robbie Staniforth: We could get into who you've wrapped on the knuckles recently, but we won't put you in that position. Alice.

James Piper: That is tempting though, isn't it? And we just talked about, like, butter wrapping on an episode. I don't know, it may have gone out, I can't remember. But you may not have heard it yet. We just talked about butter wrapping and we were saying, okay,

00:35:00

James Piper: there is a, you know, Aldi have produced a butter wrap that is recyclable. So I guess in theory they could come to you and say, this is paper. We've tested it with recyclers. We want a recycle label. There's a big difference between we tested it with recyclers and it can go through their process. And do recyclers want it? And when you've covered a piece of paper in butter, I would argue you're basically in the same position as like a dipping your pizza box in Greece. And how do you cope with that, with that instruction to the consumer? But actually does. Do you spend time, then go to the recycling saying, well, look, do you actually want this? You know, because that's a really important part of this.

Alice Harlock: Yeah, yeah. And there's various things. So we, we do, we certainly, you know, we'll get people who come to us and go, oh, I've got this. And it's amazing. And these people have told me it's recyclable. And we'll go, great. Okay, let's have a look. Can it make it through the process? Is it going to get sorted? Let's talk to the reprocessors and check that. Actually, it's not going to cause an issue and it's going to go off somewhere. Let's check that those local authorities are able to collect it. And then is there anything else that actually we can do to help make sure it gets through that process in the best way possible? So other things that we do with our labels is we've got what we call our call to action messages, but they would be extra words that you might see on a label. So a. On a butter pack, for example, we've got the option for people to put scrape on it so that, you know, you know, you're not putting a butter pack that's still got lumps of butter on. You want to scrape it clean. Or you can have. If you've Got a yoghurt pot, you could put rinse on it. Or if you've got baked beans, you could put the word empty on it or something like that. Or you know, even before tethered caps or jars on lids on jars, you can put lid on or cap on something like that. So it's about helping us also not just recycle the material, but actually put it out in the best way so that we're really improving that quality of the material and giving it a good chance to get through the process.

James Piper: I guess I'm interested in how much you look at a product by product, case and the whole system. Because we've talked a lot about paperization recently and obviously the trend towards paperization in isolation. So moving a chocolate wrapper from plastic to paper, for example, lined paper, might look positive on an individual chocolate basis. But the more that happens, the more plastic paper recyclers are having to deal with and they've got tolerances. And I know, you know, the concern is that they will suddenly have more plastic, more liners to deal with and that makes their process less efficient. And I guess I'm intrigued as to how you look at that because we're kind of interested on this podcast because we're trying to expose the truth and look at it properly. We're not really interested in case by case packaging. We're way more interested in the overall system. How do you deal with that where someone comes to you and says, I got the best packaging? Do you look at it on its own or do you look at it as a whole system?

Alice Harlock: It depends where we are in the process with that material. So things like people moving to fibre based packaging, you're right, we've seen a, you know, huge trend on that. So what we've done rather than case by case is we've kind of got a set of rules that packaging has to meet. So through the work that we've done by talking to the reprocessors or the material associations, we have a great group that support us as well, our technical advisory committee, who represent the whole value chain. And we kind of go to them and say, look, here's the evidence we've got from talking to the reprocessors, waste management companies, we want to say yes to these materials that meet these criteria. So if we can tick these boxes, then as long as these materials meet this criteria, then we're happy. Obviously if we get some, someone who comes to us with a completely new thing, then we do have to look at it individually. But if we start to see those trends, then that's where we're thinking, right, what are the rules here that we need to make sure everything is meeting before we can consider it, basically.

James Piper: So we've talked before about with liners, you're allowed up to 10% plastic, isn't it, to have the recycle label?

Alice Harlock: Yeah, it's changed recently because of the new recyclability assessment methodology that we've had come out. So there's some slight variation, but that's kind of really splitting that fibre based packaging into the kind of pure paper and board and then those more mixed fibre based composites.

Robbie Staniforth: And has that new methodology like helped to clarify certain rules or does it run counter to some of the things that you've discovered through your work? I mean, it sounds to me like you're talking rubbish an awful lot of your time with all of these manufacturers.

Alice Harlock: It's my life. Yeah. I think I'm talking value though, Robbie, other than talking rubbish. It's been a challenge, I'll be honest with you. I think the recycling assessment methodology has changed in a few places in the various iterations that we've had. And I still don't feel that we've

00:40:00

Alice Harlock: got the full clarity that we're expecting on some of the points. So some of it makes perfect sense, some of it we're trying to kind of second guess what might be coming next. And it's a real challenge for us and it's a real challenge for all the producers as well who are trying to determine where do they stand at the moment and what's coming next and how will that change what they're doing currently.

James Piper: Okay, so we've mentioned a couple of issues specifically, like there's location issues, you know, as in you've got a council that maybe recycles something, a council that doesn't. And you've also got a comms issue with the fact that distilling down to recycle, do not recycle, potentially works for the majority, but there's always going to be a subsection of society. It's like, I want to know more, I want to know what this is made of, I want to know where it's going, I want to know what the recycling rate is. And I would argue that's increasing. Obviously, since COVID we have become a world of QR codes and I feel like that is an opportunity for how you could give more information to people and potentially location specific information. So you're scanning that QR code is in Bristol. It gives you Your Bristol Guidance, you're scanning it in Banbury where you are, and, you know, it gives you your Banbury Guidance. And I guess that's interesting and I'm intrigued as to know how much you think that's part of the future, or do you think actually keeping recycling messages simple is really important?

Alice Harlock: No, I think it's a real. Got real potential. So I said that I've been working on recycling communications in various ways for many, many years. And in all the years I've been talking to people, people always want to know more. They want to know what happens to that material, where's it going? Where's what's it going to be turned into? And they want to know it at their own time and at their own rate. So I think that giving them the bigger picture, you know, painting the full story, is really, really important. And we absolutely fully recognise that our little recycling labels are not the place to do that. But if that could be a gateway to, or open the window onto this world of recycling for this piece of material that you've got through a QR code or, you know, be alongside QR codes that are on the packaging, I think that's a fascinating opportunity. I am slightly biassed. I do love the world of recycling and I'm happy to talk about it for years and years and years, but I do, I think you're right. People want to know what's going to happen, so I think that's a really good opportunity.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah. And so when it comes to, like, recycling and things up, is this all going to get taken away from the average person? As in AI robots, computer sorting? Just stick it in any old bin, it'll get sorted out by someone else. Do you think that's going to happen at some point in the future?

Alice Harlock: Honestly, no. I think AI Murphs are amazing. I have. Have been lucky enough to go and see one and I was really impressed. But there's still a bit that we need to do and it comes down to that quality of the material. So, you know, at the end of the day, if we want to get the value out of the material that's going to process, we need it to be the best quality that it can be. And that means that that contamination level, the butter bits are left on or whatever, they need not to be there. So we do need to take some responsibility, really, and, you know, make that packaging the best it can be to go through the process. So I think we've always got our part to play in the process. I, you know, and I think we all like doing it really, don't we? You know, recycling is one of those feel good things that you do, you like to do. And I do check my bin when I pull it in. In fact, we have two bins and I check them both.

James Piper: I was conscious we hadn't asked that yet. You open your bin to check if it's empty when you bring them.

Alice Harlock: Even though, even though on that first, first pull you can tell it's empty, can't you? Because it's so much lighter, but still. There we go.

James Piper: Very good, Alice. Thank you so much for coming today. Before we wrap up with our question that we ask everyone, we always like to give away a little prize when, or a little present when someone comes on. And we like to randomly select one of our listeners. We've just given away the Guinness Nitro Surge device. Interesting. That's gone to the Isle of Skye carbon. I'm not sure. Let's ignore the carbon footprint of that Guinness Nitro surge and say, hey, isn't it cool? We have a listener in the Isle of Skye who won our prize.

Robbie Staniforth: Hope they're going to be enjoying those Guinness very soon.

James Piper: I hope so. So, yes, it should be arriving. Oh, any day now. I think it's tomorrow it gets there.

Robbie Staniforth: So you've got the parcel tracker open, James, or something.

James Piper: Well, I have to order all these things so I know when they're arriving. I get a little email going, it's nearly here. I wish I was getting it. Anyway, Alice, we were wondering what you wanted or what you really enjoy in the world of recycling that we can offer as like a prize to our listeners.

Alice Harlock: So as you've gathered, I love talking to people

00:45:00

Alice Harlock: about recycling and my poor boys at home have been included in that group of people that we. I've talked to recycling about. So there's a fantastic couple of books that are produced by Osborne, which are about recycling and rubbish, and they are amazing. Lift the flat, explore the recycling processes. What happens to all the different materials? Not just for children, very easily accessible. And one of our great friends, Margaret Bates, has also been involved in the development of the book. So I would like to give out a couple of books, please.

James Piper: Oh, that's lovely. Okay, cool.

Robbie Staniforth: Can I enter the competition, James?

James Piper: I was just thinking, my son's gonna really enjoy that. I think I'm gonna have to. I'll buy myself a couple of copies at the same time. So me and Robbie are not eligible and sadly, Alice, you're not either. But if you want to be in with the chance of winning Those just follow us on Instagram rubbishpodcast. We'll put up a picture with Alice's face on it. If you just like that and give us a follow, then you'll be entered into the draw for those books. So thank you so much for that, Alice. And to wrap us up, we ask a question that we ask every, every guest who comes on. So if you had an environmental superpower, what would it be and how would you use it?

Alice Harlock: So my superpower would be to help people see the value of the material that they've. So they could see what it was going to go off and become and see how it could be used again. And I think that would really help people be motivated then to make sure that they were putting it into the recycling. So I was thinking about it on the way in. It's almost like X ray vision or something. So you like scan something and it shows you what it could turn into or you get a little voice that goes, this is going to go off and become a whatever. Anyway, that's my superpower. Please.

James Piper: I love that. And I suspect consumers would make different decisions. I mean, it's the anti epr, because when EPR first started, Extended producer Responsibility, the plan was for the cost of epr or the driver should have been, but the cost of EPR was baked into the product. So you would make different decisions. If you were buying like clear plastic tray that would be cheaper than a black plastic tray and you would make different decisions because the cost would be there. You also sort of flipping that and saying, well, it's not about the cost, it's about the value. So that clear plastic tray has a lot more value than that black plastic tray. So it'd be much better for people to see the positive of what it could become and then make decisions.

Alice Harlock: It's about giving people that full picture, you know, for helping us understand exactly what it is, what it goes on to be and, and painting that full picture for people so we understand the process.

Robbie Staniforth: Cool. So like you get an aluminium can and you've got this vision that shows it becoming a part in a Jaguar or something.

Alice Harlock: Yeah, Car.

Robbie Staniforth: And then you've got like a piece of flexible plastic and you look at that and it becomes a toothbrush handle or something.

Alice Harlock: Exactly, exactly that. I'm sure there's some AI. Something that could probably do that.

James Piper: But yeah, I feel this is the development of APRL's tool. I mean, let's not give away the. Let's not give away the business model.

Robbie Staniforth: But hey, there's something here we're into augmented reality now. Guys, guys.

James Piper: Alice, thank you so much for joining us today. We have. I just, I knew this was going to be good because I mean we've had so many emails about the on pack, recycling label, what it means, how it works. Hopefully we've covered a lot of ground there for listeners in terms of things they wanted to know about how it's actually working and why, why brands take a while to change things and the decisions you have to make. I think it's super interesting everything you're dealing with on a day to day basis. So thank you for giving us an hour of your time to come on to talking rubbish. We really appreciate it.

Alice Harlock: Thank you for having me.

James Piper: As always. If you want to get a hold of us, the links for everything are in our show notes. Our email is talkingrubbishpodcastmail.com you can follow us on any social media obbish, podcast and anything we've discussed today that we think is of interest, we'll put on our link tree again. You can find that in our show notes. The only thing left to say is bye, bye bye.

Alice Harlock: It.

00:49:02